Discussion Notes January 6th – Discussion on Selected Mp3′s, buddhism

Tonight’s delightful romp of characters: Dogen Coldstream, Danaeah Ballinger, Solari Georgia, Renwick Tomsen, stevenaia Michinaga, and me. 

[18:08] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[18:08] Danaeah Ballinger: dollars in the waistband
[18:08] Renwick Tomsen: Hi Dharma
[18:08] Danaeah Ballinger: oops
[18:08] Danaeah Ballinger: I mean
[18:08] Dharma Voyager: sorry I’m late
[18:09] Solari Georgia: Hi Dharma : )
[18:09] Danaeah Ballinger: NP
[18:09] Solari Georgia: Geisha to rock-n-roll
[18:09] Danaeah Ballinger: Solari was giving us a concert of music and dance
[18:09] Dharma Voyager: hahahah
[18:09] Dharma Voyager: nice
[18:09] Dharma Voyager: awesome
[18:09] Dharma Voyager: very cool
[18:10] Dharma Voyager: love the kimono
[18:10] Solari Georgia: TY
[18:10] Solari Georgia: Uchikake Goldenleafs
[18:11] Danaeah Ballinger: and here’s some bagpipe music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eipkKgTKAN8&annotation_id=annotation_225177&feature=iv
[18:11] Renwick Tomsen: thanks
[18:11] Danaeah Ballinger: just grabbed one at random
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: hey there dog
[18:12] Solari Georgia: HI Dogen
[18:12] Dogen Coldstream: Hello all
[18:12] Danaeah Ballinger: oh – here’s military pipes!
[18:12] stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Dharma, Dogen
[18:12] Danaeah Ballinger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ2xrN9b-Pk&feature=related
[18:12] Danaeah Ballinger: hand me my claymore ren, lets go lay something to waste!
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: I guess we are almost on time
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:13] Danaeah Ballinger: ok back to non-violence
[18:13] Renwick Tomsen: Pillage with mindfulness.
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: hahahahah
[18:13] Solari Georgia: lol
[18:13] Danaeah Ballinger: the only way to pillage!
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: sorry I had to have a personal pit stop before signing in
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: pillage just pillage gentle?
[18:14] Dogen Coldstream: We seem to be back to standard non-holiday nightmare rush-hour traffic
[18:14] Danaeah Ballinger nods
[18:14] Dharma Voyager: nightmare seems to be relative to location
[18:14] stevenaia Michinaga: having an ice storm here tonight, roads are glazed
[18:14] Danaeah Ballinger: well thanks for coming
[18:14] Dharma Voyager: oh are you locked in?
[18:14] Danaeah Ballinger: yow
[18:15] Dharma Voyager: first point?
[18:15] Danaeah Ballinger: lets

From, “The Illusion of Self-Image” – mp3 If everything is a single reality, what does that possibly say about you? If there is only one, guess which one you are? And the only thing that has the power to make a human being not perceive that, is the little thoughts in their minds confusing them. Saying no, no, no, no, I’m me, I’m this limited human being with an image, with an idea of myself, with total identification with this particular body…and that’s me.

[18:15] Dharma Voyager: From, “The Illusion of Self-Image” – mp3 If everything is a single reality, what does that possibly say about you? If there is only one, guess which one you are? And the only thing that has the power to make a human being not perceive that, is the little thoughts in their minds confusing them. Saying no, no, no, no, I’m me, I’m this limited human being with an image, with an idea of myself, with total identification with this particular body…and that’s me.
[18:16] Dharma Voyager: This discussion seems kind of weird to me
[18:16] Dharma Voyager: I was thinking that perhaps the slice of audio was taken some how out of its original context
[18:17] Danaeah Ballinger: might well have been.
[18:17] Dharma Voyager: dunno
[18:17] Dharma Voyager: was there a part of this that you thought was particularly resonant?
[18:18] stevenaia Michinaga: some of what he says seems to true, then he will generalized about “everyone” and I don’t get it
[18:18] Dharma Voyager: waits for stevies typing animation
[18:18] Dharma Voyager: darn erased
[18:18] Dharma Voyager: hahahha
[18:18] stevenaia Michinaga:
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: foiled again… we were waiting for the profound… or perhaps the fecund?
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: hehhheheh
[18:19] Danaeah Ballinger: Well maybe I goofed, I just thought it would be good to introduce everyone to Adyashanti. In his own words, he found his way after 14 years as a failure at zen
[18:19] Danaeah Ballinger: I’ve listened to some of his meditation tapes and found him challenging
[18:19] stevenaia Michinaga: not from me (I don’t know what Fecund means)
[18:19] Danaeah Ballinger: fertile
[18:19] Dogen Coldstream: I didn’t hear him say anything too heretical
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: hahahah
[18:20] Dharma Voyager: next point?

“Stillness” – mp3 So there I was, sitting down to meditate and getting all ready to try to be still, which is the best way not to be still, and this little thought occurred to me, and I thought, “Is it still already? … Is it actually quiet before I try to make it quiet?” And I was shocked. It is!

[18:20] Dharma Voyager: From, “Stillness” – mp3 So there I was, sitting down to meditate and getting all ready to try to be still, which is the best way not to be still, and this little thought occurred to me, and I thought, “Is it still already? … Is it actually quiet before I try to make it quiet?” And I was shocked. It is!

[18:20] Danaeah Ballinger: Now this is something I can verify from my own experience.
[18:21] Dogen Coldstream: yeah, that was a very neat point
[18:21] Danaeah Ballinger: I’ve gone to long – like 8 hour – meditations, and have found that the more I *work* at it, the less present/calm/still etc I was
[18:21] stevenaia Michinaga: I was just listening to this a moment ago, he does belabor things sometimes… but perhaps he speaks to those who don’t know thy know stillness
[18:22] Danaeah Ballinger: and so one thing he does is formulate things I think that can be common to spiritual seekers
[18:22] Danaeah Ballinger: for instance – a chapter in his book links spiritual seeking to addiction to spiritual highs – so in that sense he is heretical
[18:22] stevenaia Michinaga: work at stillness…. a difficult proposition
[18:22] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[18:23] stevenaia Michinaga: not working at stillness results in stillness
[18:23] Danaeah Ballinger: he compares it to driving around a lake in a motorboat, trying to find the quiet place
[18:23] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[18:23] stevenaia Michinaga: really all about letting go (of the boat)
[18:23] Renwick Tomsen: And like my cat trying to find the comfy spot.
[18:23] stevenaia Michinaga: lol, yes
[18:23] stevenaia Michinaga: circles
[18:23] Renwick Tomsen: yes
[18:23] stevenaia Michinaga: then drops
[18:23] Solari Georgia: smiles
[18:23] Dharma Voyager: plops
[18:24] stevenaia Michinaga: usually between my feet
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:24] stevenaia Michinaga: so I can’t move without disturbing him
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: hehhehe
[18:24] Solari Georgia: (Mr Blue is incredibly cute)
[18:24] stevenaia Michinaga: the cat wins
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: awwwww
[18:24] Dogen Coldstre
am:
he’s a little chub
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: I don’t know if I will tell him that
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: hehehhehehe
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: if he starts to whine I will turn on the mic
[18:24] Dharma
Voyager: laughs
[18:25] Solari Georgia: lol
[18:25] Danaeah Ballinger: I have a girlfriend who used to play the JingleCats when we would go over to her house for christmas dinner
[18:25] Dogen Coldstream: So… I noticed in listening to these short talks that he does use a lot of specifically buddhist terminology. Does he self-identify as buddhist?
[18:26] Dogen Coldstream: does not use, I mean
[18:26] Danaeah Ballinger: i do not think so
[18:26] Danaeah Ballinger: but he doesn’t not identify as a buddhist either
[18:26] Danaeah Ballinger: it is definitely his background
[18:26] Danaeah Ballinger: like 14 years at the SF Zen Center
[18:26] Solari Georgia: I liked his speaking style, and it was for an audience, so slightly repetitive
[18:27] Danaeah Ballinger: there are some good youTube clips also
[18:27] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:27] Danaeah Ballinger: ok

This stillness and quiet had nothing to do with my mind being still and quiet. Stillness was still whether the mind was still or not…we always think that the noise is the most true thing. If noise, like the noise I am generating now by speaking to you was the most true thing…why does it die as soon as my mouth stops moving? …there’s ninety-nine percent silence and one percent noise. So being still is really the movement of acknowledging stillness. “Be still.” It’s not a demand…it’s an invitation to take a look for yourself.

[18:27] Dharma Voyager: This stillness and quiet had nothing to do with my mind being still and quiet. Stillness was still whether the mind was still or not…we always think that the noise is the most true thing. If noise, like the noise I am generating now by speaking to you was the most true thing…why does it die as soon as my mouth stops moving? …there’s ninety-nine percent silence and one percent noise. So being still is really the movement of acknowledging stillness. “Be still.” It’s not a demand…it’s an invitation to take a look for yourself.
[18:27] Dogen Coldstream: he sounds young
[18:27] Dharma Voyager: nods
[18:28] Dogen Coldstream: He makes some good points with this stuff… a little different angle, but still good stuff
[18:29] Solari Georgia: a different angle from traditional Buddhist teaching?
[18:29] Danaeah Ballinger: like this point – have you ever experienced inner stillness in the thick of things? I did once, at an accident scene, helping people, before I had even tried to meditate
[18:29] stevenaia Michinaga: is stillness part of the Buddhist tradition?
[18:30] Dogen Coldstream: well, maybe just different from what I have heard
[18:30] stevenaia Michinaga: a part
[18:30] Danaeah Ballinger: inner quiet – stopping the “monkey mind” steve, yes
[18:30] Danaeah Ballinger: concentrating on the breath to slow down
[18:30] Danaeah Ballinger: quit multi-tasking as solari would tell me
[18:31] Solari Georgia: : )
[18:31] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[18:31] stevenaia Michinaga: so stillness is no-tasking
[18:32] Solari Georgia: Being still as an invitation not as a demand…..When you know what you are, you know what is.
[18:32] Solari Georgia: from the talk, this sounded good to me
[18:33] Danaeah Ballinger: Not so much here, but in one of his recordings, he really emphasizes one of the classic “non-dual” techniques
[18:33] stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be about “Knowing” not getting there cause getting there will never get you there
[18:33] Danaeah Ballinger: posing the question, “what am I?” not “who” am I but “what” am I, And watching the mind exhaust his answers
[18:34] Dogen Coldstream is a little teapot, short and stout
[18:34] Danaeah Ballinger: also – I saw a wonderful bumper sticker this week that reminded me of Buddhism and this meeting. it said, “Don’t Believe Everything You Think”
[18:34] Solari Georgia: smiles
[18:35] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:35] Danaeah Ballinger: yes

From, “Life Without a Story” – mp3 The unconditioned state of consciousness is easy to miss, because there is no content to it…but there it is, it’s just listening, it’s just watching. It’s not commenting…there is no commentator, no interpreter of the moment. And that’s the first taste of our true nature…The “me” does not like that state…[it thinks]… “What am I going to believe in? What about my point of view?”

[18:35] Dharma Voyager: From, “Life Without a Story” – mp3 The unconditioned state of consciousness is easy to miss, because there is no content to it…but there it is, it’s just listening, it’s just watching. It’s not commenting…there is no commentator, no interpreter of the moment. And that’s the first taste of our true nature…The “me” does not like that state…[it thinks]… “What am I going to believe in? What about my point of view?”
[18:36] Dharma Voyager: any comments?
[18:36] Dharma Voyager: hehehhehe
[18:37] Renwick Tomsen: part of me is over analyzing it.
[18:37] Solari Georgia: was this the part you referenced in your Blog Dharma? Can you share that please?
[18:38] Dharma Voyager: well I’m not sure if this is the one
[18:38] Dharma Voyager: sorry if my memory fails by way of context to this point
[18:38] Dharma Voyager: the point I thought was pretty cool was the one referring to being in opposition
[18:38] Solari Georgia: of course, mortal human
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: that’s me!
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: hahaha
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: it is kind of the same idea expressed in the tool of ethics we had in my old job
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: that went something like… if it doesn’t feel right… question it
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: in that same vein…
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: if you feel in conflict with something…
[18:40] Dharma Voyager: well… you are probably in opposition to it
[18:40] Dharma Voyager: truth is… opposition such as conflict in itself is not bad or good
[18:40] Dharma Voyager: conflict in most cases is a means to resolution or solution
[18:40] Dharma Voyager: positive conflict per say
[18:40] Solari Georgia: nods
[18:41] Dharma Voyager: but to recognize that you are in opposition to anything is probably a mindful way of approaching something
[18:41] Dharma Voyager: the other thing I found insightful was the context in which he referred to change in the matter
[18:41] Dharma Voyager: I don’t know if he made a full connection in his talk, perhaps I made the connection
[18:42] Dharma Voyager: but he did mention this opposition being recognized in thinking… I must change (control) a situation, or I must change myself
[18:42] Dharma Voyager: I like the idea of just thinking… when I get this feeling… I’m basically disagreeing
[18:43] Dharma Voyager: which brings up the idea
[18:43] Dharma Voyager: do I really disagree with something?
[18:43] Dharma Voyager: am I really in opposition?”‘
[18:43] Dharma Voyager: do I need to be in opposition?
[18:43] Dharma Voyager: why am I in opposition?
[18:44] stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like a wonderful clarity
[18:44] Danaeah Ballinger: Part of the context for the last quote was what he speaks of in terms of what worked for him in meditation. Cause I it seems to work for me as well. The opposite of a narrow, tight focus – he suggests meditation as more a global listening, allowing the attention go encompass all that is going on. His basic instruction is, “Let everything be as it is”
[18:45] Danaeah Ballinger: He claims in his book he was a failure at following the breath
[18:45] Dharma Voyager: I agree stevie… I thought it was a good tool… very nice view of something I had not considered in exactly that way
[18:45] Dogen Coldstream: how do you measure success in something like that?
[18:45] Dharma Voyager: refreshing thought
[18:46] ste

venaia Michinaga: what is the success you are measuring?
[18:46] stevenaia Michinaga: winning, win-win, win loose
[18:46] Danaeah Ballinger: in me
ditation? I don’t think you can. Maybe how things go in the world for me over the next six months
[18:46] Dharma Voyager: I don’t think failure is a common buddhist term
[18:46] Dogen Coldstream: yeah
[18:47] Dogen Coldstream: I mean the purpose of following the breath is just practice in coming back to the present, over and over again
[18:47] Dogen Coldstream: not sure how you could be a failure at that
[18:47] Dharma Voyager: just doing it is a success I would think
[18:47] Danaeah Ballinger: ahhh – but specifically he would repeatedly find over the years that there was inner dialog going on and he would get lost in it
[18:47] Dharma Voyager: he is a mortal human too?
[18:48] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[18:48] Danaeah Ballinger: what he comes up with is like the Zen practice of “Shikan-taza” which is simply to sit in awareness of everything
[18:48] Danaeah Ballinger: being aware of whatever comes along
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: I suspect the Dali Lama does the same as well as Thich Nhat Hanh (sorry spelling… I owe that man so much just in spelling points… very un mindful of me)
[18:48] Danaeah Ballinger: all of it
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: I suspect … and this might make someone cringe… that the buddha had the same problem
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: being I think he was a mortal human too
[18:49] Solari Georgia: he would merely smile and say hello
[18:49] Dogen Coldstream: blasphemer!
[18:49] Danaeah Ballinger: Oh yes.
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: hahhah
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: that’s me
[18:49] Dogen Coldstream:
[18:49] stevenaia Michinaga: hehe
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: my new perfume… Buddha Smell
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: do you have Buddha smell?
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: does a dog have buddha smell?
[18:50] Dogen Coldstream: “The official scent of Buddha nature”
[18:50] Solari Georgia: Buddha on a rope
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: quick trademark it
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: HAHAHAHHAA
[18:50] Danaeah Ballinger: And all the Buddhist teachers seem to say, we are *not* trying to get rid of thoughts. Thoughts are what the mind does. We are trying to become mindful of them, rather than our habitual mode – to let them carry us where they will and believe them
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: ouch
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: hehehheeh
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: the rope image was too much
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: (that was the ouch)
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:51] Solari Georgia: sorry play on the soap thing
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: I know… just my imagination jumping to the first image
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: you got me!
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: hahahahha
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: was very funny
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: I think we should sell it
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: Buddha on a rope
[18:52] Solari Georgia: it was digressive, sooo
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: hahahah
[18:52] Danaeah Ballinger: Hmmm – well if there is only ONE…..
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: there can be only one
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: wait
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: wrong story line
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: hehehhe
[18:52] Dogen Coldstream: you’re not going to chop off my head again, are you?
[18:52] Danaeah Ballinger: then Budda Bar Soap would be the ultimate
[18:53] Dharma Voyager: but I really dig the lightning
[18:53] Dharma Voyager: (refrains from releasing depravity)
[18:53] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[18:53] Dogen Coldstream: I like the buddha on a rope idea
[18:53] Renwick Tomsen: I am not sure Christopher Lambert would make a convincing Buddha.
[18:53] Solari Georgia: (sings Here We are, born to be Kings..look what you have started)
[18:53] Dogen Coldstream: you could sell that
[18:54] Dharma Voyager: I think we have a whole line of products
[18:54] Danaeah Ballinger: Buddha Bars?
[18:54] Dogen Coldstream: Organic Buddha Bars
[18:54] Dharma Voyager: nice
[18:54] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:54] Dharma Voyager: hahahahah
[18:54] Solari Georgia: please

From, Emptiness Dancing, Open Gate Publishing, Los Gatos, CA, 2004, SSBN 0-9717036-4-7 There can be a gap of quietness between thoughts, and if you are very present in that gap, you stop acting out your familiar identity. As soon as identity jumps into the gap, you don’t feel present anymore. Being nobody is usually so baffling to the mind that it starts filling that gap very quickly…But to fill it up with a somebody is meaningless. If you really want to know what you are, just experience the gap, experience the openness, and let it bloom inside. There is no better way to find out what you are. (p. 9)

[18:54] Dharma Voyager: From, Emptiness Dancing, Open Gate Publishing, Los Gatos, CA, 2004, SSBN 0-9717036-4-7 There can be a gap of quietness between thoughts, and if you are very present in that gap, you stop acting out your familiar identity. As soon as identity jumps into the gap, you don’t feel present anymore. Being nobody is usually so baffling to the mind that it starts filling that gap very quickly…But to fill it up with a somebody is meaningless. If you really want to know what you are, just experience the gap, experience the openness, and let it bloom inside. There is no better way to find out what you are. (p. 9)
[18:56] stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, RL calls
[18:57] Solari Georgia: so long Steve
[18:57] Danaeah Ballinger: I had a mini-experience along those lines recently. Catching my reflection in the mirror of a public restroom and the thought came, “Is that me?” And I **got** a little bit, that the answer was MU – no other possible answer. I felt it for a good 10 or 15 sec before other thoughts rushed in
[18:57] stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
[18:57] Dogen Coldstream: see ya steve-o
[18:59] Danaeah Ballinger: Oops
[18:59] Dharma Voyager: oh oh
[18:59] Dogen Coldstream: bye sol
[18:59] Danaeah Ballinger: impermanence
[18:59] Dharma Voyager: hahahahah
[18:59] Danaeah Ballinger: yaaaaaaaaaaaaay
[18:59] Dogen Coldstream: wb sol
[18:59] Dharma Voyager: WB Solari… doing your Dani imitation?
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[19:00] Solari Georgia: TY
[19:00] Danaeah Ballinger: a demo of impermanence
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: hahahha
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: next point?

There is a wonderful parable from the Bible that says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. Trying to hold on to your identities, even if they are the most spiritual, most holy of identities, is like trying to shove a camel through the eye of a needle. They are too big, too coarse, too untrue. But there’s one thing that can get through the eye of the smallest needle. Space, your own nothingness, can get right through into heaven. None of us can take one shred of a self-centered identity with us. (p.10)

[19:00] Dharma Voyager: There is a wonderful parable from the Bible that says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. Trying to hold on to your identities, even if they are the most spiritual, most holy of identities, is like trying to shove a camel through the eye of a needle. They are too big, too coarse, too untrue. But there’s one thing that can get through the eye of the smallest needle. Space, your own nothingness, can get right through into heaven. None of us can take one shred of a self-centered identity with us. (p.10)
[19:01] Danaeah Ballinger: I guess that has become such a key thing for me, that my antennae catch different people saying it in different ways.
[19:02] Dharma Voyager: next point?

There are many stories or spiritual myths that…portray this coming back to our own true nature as a battleground, as if there is something about you that doesn’t want to return to itself. Whether it i

s called ego, or the me, or the mind…spiritual people can buy into this myth…that there has to be some struggle. When you are really quiet you can see that this is total no
nsense. You can see that the thought arose in the mind out of emptiness, and only if you accepted it as true could it start a battle. But you see clearly that it isn’t really true: it’s just the spontaneous arising of a thought. (p. 73) [19:04] Danaeah Ballinger: Now I think *that* is a key theme you see in so many Buddhist teachers. To “take a step back” from your thoughts. To realize that “its not reality its just a thought”

[19:02] Dharma Voyager: There are many stories or spiritual myths that…portray this coming back to our own true nature as a battleground, as if there is something about you that doesn’t want to return to itself. Whether it is called ego, or the me, or the mind…spiritual people can buy into this myth…that there has to be some struggle. When you are really quiet you can see that this is total nonsense. You can see that the thought arose in the mind out of emptiness, and only if you accepted it as true could it start a battle. But you see clearly that it isn’t really true: it’s just the spontaneous arising of a thought. (p. 73) [19:04] Danaeah Ballinger: Now I think *that* is a key theme you see in so many Buddhist teachers. To “take a step back” from your thoughts. To realize that “its not reality its just a thought”
[19:04] Dogen Coldstream: yes
[19:04] Danaeah Ballinger: but it has consequences if believed
[19:04] Danaeah Ballinger: it can start wars for instance, internally or externally
[19:05] Dharma Voyager: hi Maia
[19:05] Dharma Voyager: I think the idea is that it is a good idea to see how much of perception is illusion
[19:05] Dharma Voyager: for example
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: I quit smoking
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: so during the day I have these little fits of frustration
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: of course they are withdrawal induced
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: so… my feelings are chemical based
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: today I will control my intake of nicotine
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: alcohol
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: sugar
[19:06] Dogen Coldstream: cravings: our habit energy tweaking us
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: yeah
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: but the reality is
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: we are made up of chemicals
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: rising and falling
[19:07] Dogen Coldstream: I’m totally organic
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: some we can control some we cannot
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: yeah baby you are
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[19:07] Dogen Coldstream: lol
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: I have smelt it
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[19:07] Danaeah Ballinger: Solari makes fun of me for having tofu dishes for lunch
[19:08] Solari Georgia: disassociates with that image
[19:08] Dharma Voyager: when taken in consideration to the skandhas
[19:08] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: what’s wrong with tofu?
[19:08] Dharma Voyager: each thing that makes up perception is indeed a filter
[19:08] Danaeah Ballinger: She claims its “sooooooooo California”
[19:08] Dharma Voyager: hahahhaha
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[19:08] Dharma Voyager: twigs and nuts
[19:08] Dharma Voyager: let’s take an example…
[19:08] Danaeah Ballinger: bugs
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: nuts fruits and flakes
[19:08] Dharma Voyager: sight
[19:08] Solari Georgia: (dishes made out of tofu is ridiculous)
[19:09] Danaeah Ballinger: good thing I’m being mindful
[19:09] Dharma Voyager: when you sight or vision is effected
[19:09] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[19:09] Solari Georgia: (ducks)
[19:09] Dharma Voyager: it will effect what you perceive visually
[19:09] Dogen Coldstream: I consider my home to be just waaaay northern california
[19:09] Dharma Voyager: effecting your judgment
[19:10] Renwick Tomsen: Cut off all of your senses and what is left.
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: each sense organ is a filter
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: in itself
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: what a cat perceives
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: is different what we do visually
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: is their reality different? just their perception of that reality
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: based on their incredible filters
[19:11] Dogen Coldstream: well…
[19:11] Danaeah Ballinger: well one of Goldstein’s points last week is the danger of “perception without mindfulness” – to get a partial something and mistake it for the whole
[19:11] Dharma Voyager: much less limited than ours
[19:11] Solari Georgia: yes D
[19:11] Dogen Coldstream: our sense organ filters are pretty neutral, though
[19:11] Renwick Tomsen: Creating a model based on surface information.
[19:11] Dogen Coldstream: unlike our belief, and emotion, and thought filters
[19:11] Dharma Voyager: yes
[19:11] Dharma Voyager: but the analogy is the same
[19:11] Dharma Voyager: each layer that makes up a person has its own set of filters
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: we are just used to thinking of a very simplified “self”
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: so we take for granted the other filters
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: that is why it is wise to know yourself
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: correct?
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: the deeper you look the more you see…
[19:12] Renwick Tomsen: composite filters
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: nods
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: layered filters
[19:13] Dharma Voyager: chemical… sensual… psychological
[19:13] Dharma Voyager: makes it very difficult to see how much of it could not be an illusion with out very mindful presentation
[19:13] Dharma Voyager: a very honest view of perception of self
[19:13] Dharma Voyager: extremely impermanent
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: especially when looking down at that level
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: past the superficial “I”
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: when I think of such things… I can go either to sadness
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: or to happiness in the knowledge
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: sadness in because like blood sugar
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: and people who are so moved by levels in their body
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: they know.. how much chemicals control their outlook
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: does anyone know what I’m talking about?
[19:15] Solari Georgia: well yes, of course
[19:15] Dogen Coldstream: I know what you are talking about, but I forget why you are talking about it
[19:16] Solari Georgia: the biochemistry is just as important
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: how little control we have even in ourselves
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: it is best to let that go too
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: in one way
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: but have a mindful approach in another way?
[19:17] Dharma Voyager: to go deeper with that knowing one must accept it too
[19:17] Dharma Voyager: I suppose that is the place where I have been considering
[19:17] Dharma Voyager: just analysis on my own filters
[19:17] Dharma Voyager: based on my current chemical opportunity
[19:17] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[19:18] Solari Georgia: smiles
[19:18] Solari Georgia: nearly one week into no nicotine?
[19:18] Dogen Coldstream: I guess part of being mindful is seeing how our own hormones push our thoughts and motions around
[19:18] Dogen Coldstream: emotions
[19:18] Dharma Voyager: I tend to think myself a honest person.. .but that my friend is a difficult one
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: I suspect journaling would be one source of information
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: not enough memory in my introspection
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: having honest mirrors as friends as well
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: good tool
[19:20] Danaeah Ballinger: Dogen – partly yes, partly no. If I recognize that the 3d cup of coffee makes me jangly – that’s good information. But **mindfulness** per se, does not include analysis of cause and effect. It is, I think all focuses on what, not wh

y
[19:20] Danaeah Ballinger: and if the thoughts bum me out….that is thought doing its thing…..
[19:20] Danaeah Ballinger: rattling around
[19:21] Danaeah Ballinger: keeping me in opposition to something[19:21] Danaeah Ballinger: when in opposition I’m in small self
[19:21] Danaeah Ballinger: can be opposition to anything
[19:21] Danaeah Ballinger: if I’m not present I am “I”
[19:21] Dharma Voyager: how about pms?
[19:21] Danaeah Ballinger: “I do not like….”
[19:21] Dharma Voyager: what is the why?
[19:21] Dogen Coldstream: I guess I was thinking about making skillful choices, when our body chemistry is pushing us one way or the other
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: yes
[19:22] Danaeah Ballinger: well that is like a toothache – there are easier and harder times to be very mindful
[19:22] Danaeah Ballinger: walk before running
[19:22] Solari Georgia: pms is recognizable, if sneaky..you know the source
[19:22] Danaeah Ballinger: I know – I was such a weenie about quitting smoking, I had to use the gum
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: yes but there is no why?
[19:23] Danaeah Ballinger: yes solari – the hard ones are the moods that jump you without an obvious cause
[19:23] Dogen Coldstream: I think we talked about this stuff before, when talking about recovery, and there was a list of things… hunger, pain, etc.
[19:23] Dharma Voyager: yes
[19:23] Dogen Coldstream: the things that push us around inside… that we need to be mindful of
[19:24] Dharma Voyager: yes
[19:24] Dharma Voyager: a deep knowledge of self
[19:25] Danaeah Ballinger: except **knowledge** implies something I have that is likely to be constant from one day to the next. Awareness it seems, can come and go in an instant
[19:26] Dharma Voyager: well… I have a hard time agreeing with that
[19:26] Dharma Voyager: there are constants for me
[19:26] Dharma Voyager: there are changes… but there are certainly constants from one day to the next
[19:26] Danaeah Ballinger: I didn’t say there weren’t
[19:27] Danaeah Ballinger: I said for me, “self-knowledge” is not one of them
[19:27] Dharma Voyager: I understand a mind freeing tool… like saying “who am I?”
[19:27] Dharma Voyager: like dancing … or being wacked with a stick
[19:27] Dharma Voyager: perhaps a conscious raising event
[19:28] Dharma Voyager: kicks you out of the box per say
[19:28] Dharma Voyager: good tools
[19:28] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[19:28] Dharma Voyager: but there is reality too…
[19:28] Dharma Voyager: my back ache is a constant I would rather deny
[19:28] Dharma Voyager: to say… “who has this back ache?”
[19:28] Dharma Voyager: doe snot help in solving the problem
[19:29] Dharma Voyager: to be or snots to be
[19:29] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[19:29] Danaeah Ballinger: I do not think anyone says that, especially about physical pain.
[19:29] Solari Georgia: : )
[19:29] Danaeah Ballinger: although
[19:29] Danaeah Ballinger: I do have a tape in which Kornfield talks about really really really being mindful of certain discomforts in meditation
[19:30] Danaeah Ballinger: I mean supposedly Ghandi had his appendix out without anesthetic cause he could concentrate so one pointedly he could turn off the sensation
[19:30] Dharma Voyager: some of physical pain is mental in formation
[19:30] Danaeah Ballinger: but nobody recommends that for beginners
[19:30] Danaeah Ballinger: the phrase, “pain is inevitable, suffering is optional”
[19:30] Dogen Coldstream: I don’t think I’d recommend that for anybody
[19:31] Dharma Voyager: but I think it only takes mindfulness of reality to find well where the illusions may lie
[19:31] Danaeah Ballinger: I think means I perhaps can not make things worse with commentary
[19:31] Danaeah Ballinger: “why do I always….?”
[19:31] Dharma Voyager: yes generalizations are usually not beneficial
[19:31] Dharma Voyager: and it is amazing that when given are rarely positive
[19:31] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[19:31] Dharma Voyager: at least in my case
[19:32] Dharma Voyager: when given to me
[19:32] Dharma Voyager: I meant that in reference to “why do I always…?”
[19:32] Solari Georgia: yes
[19:33] Danaeah Ballinger: Yet today I did have a little moment. “Oh crap, I’ll never stay awake through this 1:00pm meeting” – and I asked myself, “who wont stay awake”
[19:33] Dharma Voyager: good tool
[19:33] Dharma Voyager: generalization is a killer
[19:34] Danaeah Ballinger: some other sub-personality got a cup of coffee for insurance
[19:34] Dharma Voyager: hahahahhaha
[19:34] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[19:34] Solari Georgia: back to chemicals
[19:34] Dogen Coldstream: they work
[19:34] Dharma Voyager: the body will produce the right ones when triggered
[19:34] Dharma Voyager: or the wrong ones
[19:34] Dharma Voyager: we just supplement
[19:34] Danaeah Ballinger: speaking of which, I need to take a little dinner break. Twigs and nuts await
[19:34] Dharma Voyager: hahahhaa
[19:34] Solari Georgia: rolls eyes
[19:34] Dogen Coldstream: enjoy, dani
[19:35] Dharma Voyager: nite nite Dani
[19:35] Dharma Voyager: happy eating
[19:35] Solari Georgia: see ya later D.
[19:35] Danaeah Ballinger: thanks everyone. See you next week if not before
[19:35] Dogen Coldstream: It has been interesting, as usual. catch you guys next week
[19:35] Renwick Tomsen: that it has

Good times had by all!  Well by me… Thank everyone