Discussion Notes February 10th – The Art of Happiness (Ch 9)

My facilitation skills were a little slow tonight, and we only made it through the discussion notes from chapter nine.  Oh well.  So next week we will cover the points from chapter ten that Solari so graciously prepared. 

Tonight’s discussion and various free form blasphemous chatter brought to you by:  Dogen Coldstream, Danaeah Ballinger, Solari Georgia, stevenaia Michinaga, and me.  We also welcomed a new friend Craig Jeffries.

[18:02] Solari Georgia: ok mine is set at 1/4
[18:02] Danaeah Ballinger: Hi Dharma
[18:02] Danaeah Ballinger: cool
[18:02] Dharma Voyager: hey there sorry we are late
[18:02] Danaeah Ballinger: that is where is should be
[18:02] Solari Georgia: Hiya Dharma
[18:02] Danaeah Ballinger: gasp = 120 sec late!!! outrageous
[18:03] Solari Georgia: Heavens to Betsy
[18:03] Dharma Voyager: yeah just ran in through the door
[18:03] Dharma Voyager: Dogen should be few moments
[18:03] Danaeah Ballinger: good
[18:04] Solari Georgia: yes w’out a quorum we would have to party
[18:04] Danaeah Ballinger: quorums can party too
[18:04] Solari Georgia: trew
[18:04] Solari Georgia: shhh! there he is
[18:04] Dharma Voyager: hahahaha
[18:05] Danaeah Ballinger: I always felt like I should keep things serious when I was doing the notes – now I am free to be a goof
[18:05] Dharma Voyager: looks for the notes
[18:05] Dharma Voyager: hahahaha
[18:05] Solari Georgia: Dani …goofy?
[18:05] Dharma Voyager: damn I didn’t even get them posted
[18:05] Dogen Coldstream: hi guys
[18:05] Danaeah Ballinger: Hi Dogen
[18:05] Solari Georgia: Hi Dogen
[18:06] Solari Georgia: well…they were a day late
[18:06] Danaeah Ballinger: Nice reference to your namesake in the current issue of Tricycle
[18:06] Solari Georgia: I blame the dog
[18:06] Dogen Coldstream: really?
[18:06] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:06] Danaeah Ballinger: (do you have a dog?)
[18:06] Solari Georgia: (nope)
[18:06] Danaeah Ballinger: Ohhh – I see. You blame my dog
[18:06] Danaeah Ballinger: well she can be pretty naughty
[18:07] Solari Georgia: yes, that’s it..that’s the ticket
[18:07] Dharma Voyager: brb
[18:07] Danaeah Ballinger: ok
[18:07] Solari Georgia: ok
[18:08] Solari Georgia: 59 degrees F…new record for 10 Feb
[18:08] Dogen Coldstream: ah I see it, talking about Genjokoan?
[18:08] Danaeah Ballinger: wow
[18:09] Danaeah Ballinger: no, the zen meditation challenge pieces
[18:09] Dogen Coldstream: heh, we had snow today
[18:09] Dogen Coldstream: the Big Sit
[18:09] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[18:09] Dogen Coldstream: cool beans
[18:09] Danaeah Ballinger: sounds like a Bogart movie
[18:10] Dogen Coldstream: yes
[18:10] Danaeah Ballinger: but its a great article.
[18:10] Dogen Coldstream: with the lovely lauren bacall
[18:10] Danaeah Ballinger: “Where’s my Velma?”
[18:11] Dogen Coldstream: where’s my stevey?
[18:11] Dharma Voyager: I just paged the stevie
[18:11] Dogen Coldstream: we are missing some key players here
[18:11] Dharma Voyager: Renny won’t be able to make it
[18:11] Dogen Coldstream: no Ren?
[18:12] Danaeah Ballinger: I will probably be MIA next week
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: brb
[18:12] Dogen Coldstream: no dani
[18:12] Solari Georgia: she has a previous engagement : )
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:13] Danaeah Ballinger: I shall be celebrating impermanence, mindfully eating cake, as the Odometer turns again
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: ok I think we are almost settled
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: awww cool… happy turning day
[18:13] Danaeah Ballinger sings, “another year older and deeper in debt”
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: beginning of suffering day?
[18:14] Dogen Coldstream: another 100,000 miles under the belt
[18:14] Dharma Voyager: well I think it is time to begin…
[18:14] Dharma Voyager: everyone ready for first point?
[18:14] Danaeah Ballinger: yes ma’am
[18:14] Dogen Coldstream: yes’m
[18:14] Solari Georgia: yes
[18:15] Dharma Voyager: sorry lagging a little

Self-created Suffering- Chapter 9 “So I think to a large extend, whether you suffer depends on how you respond to a given situation. For example, say that you find out someone is speaking badly of you behind your back. If you react to this knowledge that someone is speaking badly of you, this negativity, with a feeling if hurt and anger, then you, yourself destroy your own peace of mind. your pain is your own personal creation.”

[18:15] Dharma Voyager: Self-created Suffering- Chapter 9 “So I think to a large extend, whether you suffer depends on how you respond to a given situation. For example, say that you find out someone is speaking badly of you behind your back. If you react to this knowledge that someone is speaking badly of you, this negativity, with a feeling if hurt and anger, then you, yourself destroy your own peace of mind. your pain is your own personal creation.”
[18:15] Danaeah Ballinger: feel free to relog if you need to dharma
[18:15] Dharma Voyager: oh I would probably need a reboot… sad to say
[18:15] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:16] Dharma Voyager: I think I’ll make it through
[18:16] Dogen Coldstream: blame here OS
[18:16] Dogen Coldstream: her
[18:16] Dharma Voyager: hehhee.. blame the owner for not rebooting for a very long time
[18:16] Dharma Voyager: hahhaha
[18:16] Dogen Coldstream: needs to switch to a manly OS
[18:16] Dharma Voyager: I’m was thinking the other day… as someone joked to someone at work about talking about them while they were outside of the room
[18:16] Dogen Coldstream: that doesn’t need to be rebooted
[18:16] Danaeah Ballinger: real quick – what is a manly OS?
[18:17] Dharma Voyager: their response was you can talk about me as long as it is something good
[18:17] Dogen Coldstream: linux or bsd
[18:17] Solari Georgia: lol
[18:17] Dharma Voyager: and I thought to myself.. shit… good? how about just a really good story
[18:17] Dharma Voyager: Dharma an alien from outer space
[18:17] Danaeah Ballinger: I think those are geek OS – unisex
[18:17] Dharma Voyager: or something
[18:18] Dogen Coldstream wonders if maybe Dharma really is an alien
[18:18] Solari Georgia: pod Dharma
[18:18] Dharma Voyager: Refrains from technical talk… my right brain has been engaged
[18:18] Dharma Voyager: hahahha
[18:18] Dogen Coldstream: yes, a geekier os
[18:18] Danaeah Ballinger: quite likely – I was actually talking about MIB in a meeting today
[18:18] Dogen Coldstream: she’s usually pretty geeky
[18:18] Dharma Voyager: I’m a female OS… interface me baby
[18:19] Solari Georgia: @@
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: completely object oriented… and decoupled
[18:19] Danaeah Ballinger: Hmmm – I had a way back to point 1 but just lost it
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: hahahhaa
[18:19] Danaeah Ballinger: something about how *blame* increases suffering
[18:19] Dogen Coldstream: sometimes I wonder about what people might be saying about me behind my back, but… really, I just don’t care that much
[18:20] Dogen Coldstream: I guess the larger point is that your reaction, is your responsibility
[18:20] Dharma Voyager: as a female OS, I find abstraction layers so…. reduces the sensitivity of the interface
[18:20] Dharma Voyager: naked interface attraction
[18:20] Dogen Coldstream is looking for more keyboard shortcuts
[18:20] Solari Georgia: as A PC i’m sensitive to anything from MacOS
[18:20] Danaeah Ballinger: you guys are good!
[18:21] Dharma Voyager: Mac OS… femme?
[18:21] Danaeah Ballinger: we will link up later
[18:21] Danaeah Ballinger: nah, unisex cool
[1
8:21] Solari Georgia: (slight voltage increase)
[18:21] Dharma Voyager: oh my
[18:21] Dogen Coldstream: overclock me baby!
[18:21] Dharma Voyager: you are running a bit hot today
[18:21] Dogen Coldstream: I think my CPU just locked up
[18:22] Danaeah Ballinger: my fan will be kicking on in a minute
[18:22] Dharma Voyager: quit trying to stick your USB in my serial port
[18:22] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:22] Dharma Voyager: hehehhe
[18:22] Solari Georgia: plz

“…When this kind of thinking (self-created suffering) becomes a pervasive pattern of relating to the world and extends to every comment made by our family or friends, or even events in society at large, it can become a significant source of misery.”

[18:22] Dharma Voyager: “…When this kind of thinking (self-created suffering) becomes a pervasive pattern of relating to the world and extends to every comment made by our family or friends, or even events in society at large, it can become a significant source of misery.”
[18:23] Dogen Coldstream looks for adapter cable
[18:23] Dharma Voyager: hehhehehe
[18:23] Dharma Voyager: now that is sexy
[18:23] Dharma Voyager: does your adapter vibrate?
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: that last point is like quitting smoking
[18:24] Dogen Coldstream: self-created suffering… interesting term
[18:24] Dogen Coldstream finds a gender changer. hmmm…
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: when you are first in withdrawals every thing feels like it is hitting you right at the good and painful spot of your nerve endings
[18:25] Dharma Voyager: not pleasant
[18:25] Danaeah Ballinger: I first noticed something key when I started doing a lot of mindfulness practice. Enough that began to see how arbitrary my thought stream is. I realized that almost every day as I walked to work – from the parking lot to my desk – my mind was spewing all this negative crap. Worst expectation of the days meetings, etc.
[18:25] Dharma Voyager: GARFACE!
[18:25] Solari Georgia: Hi Gar
[18:25] Danaeah Ballinger: I would be in a really negative mood by the time I sad down
[18:25] Danaeah Ballinger: Hi Gar
[18:25] Gar Hallard: hey all
[18:25] Dogen Coldstream: not a good way to start the day
[18:25] Dogen Coldstream: Hey Gar
[18:25] Danaeah Ballinger: Dharma and Dogen are being very naughty. I think we may need to bring them up on charges
[18:25] Dharma Voyager: yeah… I hear ya Dani
[18:26] Gar Hallard: lol
[18:26] Solari Georgia: Overuse of computer metaphor…class c felony
[18:26] Dharma Voyager: hahaha well that could be too… I think you should bring us up on charges too
[18:26] Dharma Voyager: HAHAHHAHA
[18:26] Dharma Voyager: even today in the elevator
[18:26] Gar Hallard: hold you in contempt

[18:26] Dharma Voyager: Someone said something that made me smile
[18:27] Dharma Voyager: just turned my whole morning positive… well till something less positive happens
[18:27] Dharma Voyager: much of the time walking from one place to the next I’m so focused on something on my mind
[18:27] Dharma Voyager: next thing I need to get done
[18:27] Danaeah Ballinger: A huge huge payoff of mindfulness practice is the simple, but profound discovery that my thoughts are (1) not all true, and (2) not really *my own*
[18:28] Danaeah Ballinger: yes yes
[18:28] Dogen Coldstream: yeah
[18:28] Danaeah Ballinger: me too dharma
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: especially at work
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: that will be one thing I will need to adjust with quitting smoking
[18:28] Danaeah Ballinger: I’m sure
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: when I went out for a break… which I don’t do enough now that I’m quit… I would sit outside and enjoy the weather
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: what ever it was
[18:28] Danaeah Ballinger: yes yes yes
[18:28] Danaeah Ballinger: I had the same experience
[18:29] Danaeah Ballinger: once an hour no matter what, a time out from everything
[18:29] Dharma Voyager: yeah
[18:29] Solari Georgia: what’s stopping you from taking the same kind of break and not smoking?
[18:29] Dharma Voyager: so in a way there were benefits because it was an excuse to be mindful
[18:29] Dogen Coldstream: hmmm… good point. I don’t think I’ve taken a “break” since I quit smoking
[18:29] Danaeah Ballinger: now it is optional sol
[18:29] Dharma Voyager: nods
[18:29] Solari Georgia: ahhh
[18:29] Danaeah Ballinger: I mean I will work through it or surf the web etc
[18:29] Dharma Voyager: yes when I started this job I wasn’t smoking… and I got in the habit of taking a walk
[18:29] Solari Georgia: (never a smoker)
[18:29] Dharma Voyager: then when I smoked it broke that…
[18:30] Dharma Voyager: but yes…that is a good point… it is optional when it really probably shouldn’t be
[18:30] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:31] Danaeah Ballinger: I do take a 20-30 min brisk walk every noon, and use that time generally with either a mantra, or simply being mindful and both really help
[18:31] Dharma Voyager: oh sorry I didn’t see you typing
[18:31] Danaeah Ballinger: np
[18:31] Danaeah Ballinger: lets move on
[18:31] Dharma Voyager: well this is helpful… I should think of doing something like that
[18:31] Dharma Voyager:

“…Karma should not be understood in terms of a passive, static force but rather should be understood in terms of an active process. This indicates that there is an important role for the individual agent to play in determining the course of the Karmic process.”
[18:32] Dharma Voyager: does anyone remember the context of this quote?

[18:31] Dharma Voyager: “…Karma should not be understood in terms of a passive, static force but rather should be understood in terms of an active process. This indicates that there is an important role for the individual agent to play in determining the course of the Karmic process.”
[18:32] Dharma Voyager: does anyone remember the context of this quote?
[18:33] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:33] Danaeah Ballinger: one moment
[18:33] Dharma Voyager: kk
[18:34] Solari Georgia: it was from feelings of “not fair” rational
[18:34] Solari Georgia: blaming Karma
[18:34] Danaeah Ballinger: just to note, from one of our other books that the sanskrit meaning of “karma” is simply “action”
[18:34] Danaeah Ballinger: like action-reaction.
[18:34] Danaeah Ballinger: sometimes its easy to see
[18:34] Dogen Coldstream: The naive western definition of it is more like effect
[18:35] Danaeah Ballinger: like greenhouse gases -> global warming, cause there is mass karma too
[18:35] Danaeah Ballinger: the problem is – for those who believe in rebirth – is that a lot of causes are hidden
[18:35] Gar Hallard: i always thought of it as some force that gets you ultimately for bad acts
[18:35] Dogen Coldstream: the cosmic ledger?
[18:35] Dogen Coldstream: that seems to be the western view
[18:36] Gar Hallard: bbiab
[18:36] Danaeah Ballinger: aka, “what goes around, comes around”
[18:36] Gar Hallard: yes
[18:36] Danaeah Ballinger: and you can see that in simple things – often not hidden
[18:36] Dharma Voyager: it was interesting , last night in a discussion that idea came up about karmic credit… what was the term?
[18:36] Dogen Coldstream: some impersonal force that is keeping track of what you do, and will reward or punish your appropriately
[18:37] Dogen Coldstream: very christian
[18:37]
Dharma Voyager: yes
[18:37] Solari Georgia: that sounds like Judgment Day Dogan
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: that was what I was going to say
[18:37] Danaeah Ballinger: ahhhh – but there is another wrinkle too
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: a conversation I kept out of
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:37] Solari Georgia:
[18:37] Danaeah Ballinger: in the eastern views, bringing in awareness can change or modify karma
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: “fields of merit”
[18:37] Solari Georgia: that’s it….from a previous chapter
[18:38] Dharma Voyager: I think that is specific to school of buddhism
[18:38] Danaeah Ballinger: there are tales of criminals that became masters/enlightened, in one lifetime
[18:38] Danaeah Ballinger: and hinduism
[18:38] Dogen Coldstream: yes, our intention right now influences what will happen
[18:38] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[18:38] Danaeah Ballinger: and in the *true* spirit of christianity, it is the inside, the inner motives that count, both in east and west
[18:39] Dogen Coldstream: I guess I was thinking of naive christianity
[18:39] Dogen Coldstream: the surface view that so many seem to be into
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: contemplates is enlightenment really always means “non criminal”
[18:39] Danaeah Ballinger: yeah, karma == santa claus == god the father
[18:39] Dogen Coldstream: yeah
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: Stevie dude!
[18:39] Solari Georgia: Hi Steve
[18:40] stevenaia Michinaga: waves
[18:40] Danaeah Ballinger: well, Kornfield, on a tape, says, “just try going out for a day of stealing and see how well you meditate that night”
[18:40] Gar Hallard: we’re talking about santa claus steven
[18:40] Dogen Coldstream: Hey Steve
[18:40] stevenaia Michinaga: better than other germans
[18:40] Solari Georgia: a Karmic St. Nick
[18:40] stevenaia Michinaga: better
[18:40] Danaeah Ballinger: a Beach Boys song, no?
[18:41] Dogen Coldstream: Karma keeping track of who is naughty and who is nice
[18:41] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[18:41] Dogen Coldstream hopes he doesn’t get another lump of coal
[18:41] Solari Georgia: checks the “merit” list…twice
[18:41] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[18:41] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:42] Danaeah Ballinger: yes

…Seemed a bit of a stretch…finding your own contribution to another’s dishonesty. But there was a general sincerity in his voice as he spoke. which suggested that in fact this was a technique he had used to practical advantage in his personal life to help deal with adversity. But whether we are successful or not, even the honest attempt to search for our own contribution to a problem allows a certain shift of focus.”

[18:42] Dharma Voyager: …Seemed a bit of a stretch…finding your own contribution to another’s dishonesty. But there was a general sincerity in his voice as he spoke. which suggested that in fact this was a technique he had used to practical advantage in his personal life to help deal with adversity. But whether we are successful or not, even the honest attempt to search for our own contribution to a problem allows a certain shift of focus.”
[18:43] Dharma Voyager: I had someone recently tell me … someone in leadership… never to say your sorry
[18:43] Dogen Coldstream: I guess the benefit is that you are looking at something you actually have some control over
[18:43] Dharma Voyager: I thought to myself… wow that is so like not who I want to be right now
[18:43] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[18:43] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[18:43] Dogen Coldstream: silly manager
[18:43] Danaeah Ballinger: very naive manager
[18:43] Danaeah Ballinger: dangerously ignorant manager
[18:43] Dharma Voyager: someone needs to whack him with the wisdom stick
[18:43] stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like a lawyer
[18:44] Solari Georgia: single focus..no perspective
[18:44] Dharma Voyager: I’m sure I didn’t understand his context
[18:44] Gar Hallard: what?
[18:44] Danaeah Ballinger: perhaps. I hope so.
[18:45] Dharma Voyager: I have known people who have acted like that… never saying sorry
[18:45] Dharma Voyager: it is pretty sad
[18:45] Dharma Voyager: actually
[18:45] Gar Hallard: yes
[18:45] Dharma Voyager: not much trust in that action
[18:45] Dharma Voyager: is there?
[18:45] Danaeah Ballinger: I know how much energy it takes to always be right, cause growing up in my house, if something went wrong it was always somebodies fault
[18:45] Danaeah Ballinger: so I desperately tried to cover my own ass
[18:46] Gar Hallard: i’ve found whether to clients or employees when i do something wrong admitting it is the best
[18:46] Dharma Voyager: I think at this age… it must come down to the fear of showing weakness
[18:46] Danaeah Ballinger: and worse, I carry that into relationships now – I really have to be mindful to this day
[18:46] Danaeah Ballinger: Or, as Bart Simpson said, “I didn’t do it!”
[18:47] stevenaia Michinaga: sorry is a sign of acceptance and could be both sorry for being right as much as sorry for being wrong
[18:47] Gar Hallard: yes steve
[18:47] Dharma Voyager: I mean what does it add up to.. if you are always making the same mistake, and never apologize you just seem like you are clue free or something? insensitive?
[18:47] stevenaia Michinaga: I’m right you are fucked…hehe
[18:47] Dharma Voyager: true steve
[18:47] stevenaia Michinaga: sorry
[18:47] Dharma Voyager: hahahah
[18:47] stevenaia Michinaga:
[18:47] Dharma Voyager: well that isn’t a real sorry is it?
[18:47] Gar Hallard: ahahha
[18:47] Danaeah Ballinger: bet hitler never apologized Steve
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: HAHAHAHHAH
[18:48] Gar Hallard: oh gawd
[18:48] stevenaia Michinaga: a weak soul
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: she said the H-word
[18:48] Solari Georgia: : )
[18:48] Gar Hallard: dharma!!!!
[18:48] Danaeah Ballinger: I did it on purpose too. And I wont apologize
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: hahahahah
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: I’m right… we are so fucked
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[18:48] Gar Hallard: i meant dani!!!!
[18:48] Danaeah Ballinger: I kinda think that’s one way of stating the Buddha’s first noble truth
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: I have been sorry for being right.. very sorry.. especially when the outcome was not very happy
[18:49] Danaeah Ballinger: stating
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: hahahha good one Dani
[18:49] Dogen Coldstream: Hitler will always have a place at this table.
[18:49] Gar Hallard: ahahaha
[18:49] stevenaia Michinaga: pls state the 1st noble truth for us
[18:49] Solari Georgia: along with Stalin…we need our enemies
[18:49] Danaeah Ballinger: Life is full of suffering
[18:50] stevenaia Michinaga: simply if possible
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: we need teachers
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: gahhh enemies… your blowing my enlightenment!
[18:50] Dogen Coldstream: The way you say it sounds so negative, dani
[18:50] Danaeah Ballinger: I think that book we read – “Buddhism without beliefs” outlined the 4 noble truths very simply
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: every slight is sacred
[18:50] Danaeah Ballinger: that is how the buddha meant it
[18:51] Danaeah Ballinger: most people are pretty miserable if you scratch the surface
[18:51] Danaeah Ballinger: but then he said the causes of suffering can be understood, and the causes of happiness substituted
[18:51] Danaeah Ballinger: the the the cause of suffering -
[18:51] Danaeah Ballinger: our minds are usually at war with life as it is
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: it is weird.. but the phrase came up for me last night…. “change your mind”
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: I was talking about intention
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: but I should have just simplified
[18:52] Dharma Voyager:
can you change your mind?
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: then you can probably be happy
[18:52] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[18:52] Danaeah Ballinger: letting go
[18:53] Danaeah Ballinger: you actually don’t have to even do anything
[18:53] Dharma Voyager: or accepting.. or just changing your mind
[18:53] Danaeah Ballinger: just observing how the mind works will change it
[18:53] Danaeah Ballinger: just noticing
[18:53] Gar Hallard: being mindful
[18:53] Gar Hallard: cool
[18:54] Danaeah Ballinger: I mean it is now a basic belief of the sciences, that the observer changes the outcome of any experiment
[18:54] Dogen Coldstream: yeppers
[18:54] Gar Hallard: yes
[18:54] Solari Georgia: quantumly
[18:54] Danaeah Ballinger: aye

[18:55] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:55] stevenaia Michinaga: nods

Sometimes I wonder if the ability to live without indulging in self-destructive guilt is partly cultural. I was told that, in fact, the Tibetan language doesn’t even have an equivalent for the English word “guilt’, although it does have words meaning “remorse” or “repentance” or “regret”, with a sense of “rectifying things in the future”.

[18:55] Dharma Voyager: Sometimes I wonder if the ability to live without indulging in self-destructive guilt is partly cultural. I was told that, in fact, the Tibetan language doesn’t even have an equivalent for the English word “guilt’, although it does have words meaning “remorse” or “repentance” or “regret”, with a sense of “rectifying things in the future”.
[18:56] Gar Hallard: you know i was thinking about hat over the weekend
[18:56] Dharma Voyager: what about?
[18:56] Gar Hallard: how if you don’t do anything with it guilt is pretty worthless
[18:56] Dharma Voyager: like worry right?
[18:56] Dogen Coldstream: just added suffering
[18:56] stevenaia Michinaga: tell that to my mother, don;t Tibetans have mothers?
[18:56] Gar Hallard: if you don’t change your behavior why feel guilty about it?
[18:57] Dharma Voyager: hahahahh not Jewish or Italian ones
[18:57] Dharma Voyager: their mothers smile
[18:57] Solari Georgia: lol
[18:57] stevenaia Michinaga: grins
[18:57] Danaeah Ballinger: A visiting teacher recently said that the Dalai Lama and his monks were stunned when they first came to the west and discovered the depth of self hatred here – there is nothing like it in Tibet. Even 20 years later, HH believes it, but has trouble understanding it
[18:57] Dharma Voyager: lmao
[18:57] Dharma Voyager: does it scare you when your mother smiles?
[18:57] Dharma Voyager: LMAO
[18:57] Danaeah Ballinger: this teacher went on to say, she thinks it has to do with Original Sin in the west, and the belief that we are flawed at the core
[18:57] Dharma Voyager: sorry
[18:57] Solari Georgia: yes Dani
[18:57] Dogen Coldstream: Dani: yeah, I can see that
[18:58] Gar Hallard: yeah
[18:58] Danaeah Ballinger: while in Buddhism the belief is that at the core we are wise and compassionate – we just have some gunk covering it up that needs to be removed by practice
[18:58] Gar Hallard: well steven is flawed at the core
[18:58] Danaeah Ballinger: yes the exception that proves the rule
[18:58] Dogen Coldstream: In Steve, it’s more of a creamy filling
[18:58] stevenaia Michinaga: just busy de-gunking
[18:58] Gar Hallard: yeah
[18:58] Dharma Voyager: I wonder if it effects us differently than say Europe… when you speak of the west are you speaking of only North America?
[18:59] Gar Hallard: i think we have more self hate than say france maybe not england
[18:59] Danaeah Ballinger: this particular woman – herself an ordained Tibetan Lama – was talking about Christian cultures
[18:59] Gar Hallard: but i think its a western thing
[18:59] Danaeah Ballinger: places that have “The Fall” as their cultural story
[18:59] Dharma Voyager: does Catholic count as Christian?
[19:00] Danaeah Ballinger: of course
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: Sorry but it does seem very different to me
[19:00] Gar Hallard: well hold on there missy
[19:00] Danaeah Ballinger: go ahead
[19:00] Solari Georgia: ?
[19:00] Dogen Coldstream wonders if even jewish might count as christian in this context
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: smiles wide
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: could be Dani

[19:00] Gar Hallard: not in the bible belt it ain’t
[19:00] Danaeah Ballinger: don’t know
[19:00] Gar Hallard: lol
[19:01] Danaeah Ballinger: the simple point was, HH said in Tibet there simply isn’t the degree of guilt and shame that is common in the west
[19:01] Solari Georgia: I suspect you can classify “original Sin” as a Judeo-Christian concept
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: nods
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: but some cultures take it a bit more to heart
[19:01] Danaeah Ballinger: meaning at our core we are flawed
[19:01] stevenaia Michinaga: [not sure there is an jewish original sin
[19:01] Danaeah Ballinger: fighting a loosing battle to get good
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: not with healing baptismal waters?
[19:01] Dogen Coldstream: I guess we should just work on reveling in our sins
[19:02] Dharma Voyager: I had always planned that if I had kids I wouldn’t let them get baptized till 40
[19:02] Solari Georgia: (makes note to research the concept and it’s roots)
[19:02] stevenaia Michinaga: moravians do that
[19:02] stevenaia Michinaga: not 40 but adult
[19:03] Dharma Voyager: seems practical to me
[19:03] Dogen Coldstream: do they do the total immersion thing too?
[19:03] Danaeah Ballinger: actually, I knew an elderly man in AA. He went to a Catholic school. Typical unruly kid. The nuns stood him up in front of the class and told the other children, “No one play with this bad little boy – he is going to hell.” He told me he’d spent many decades trying to enjoy the ride, with bad results.
[19:03] Gar Hallard: i waited til i was 40
[19:03] Dogen Coldstream: not just a few drops on the forehead
[19:03] Dogen Coldstream: f’ing nuns
[19:03] Danaeah Ballinger: actually that is really ignorant Christianity, and I know several nuns I really admire
[19:04] Dharma Voyager: nuns fuck up too… the pope HE is infallible… let’s not get confused
[19:04] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[19:04] Dharma Voyager: I had a couple good nun teachers too
[19:05] Danaeah Ballinger has a rare moment of mindfulness and realizes she has been indulging in blaming
[19:05] Dogen Coldstream: why do people buy into that whole heaven and hell thing? good and evil, us and them, etc
[19:05] Danaeah Ballinger: acculturation for one thing
[19:05] Solari Georgia: leftover from the past…the power of the church
[19:05] Dharma Voyager: morry povitich syndrome?
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: I dunno I can’t even laugh when I see shows about how people are making unwise choices
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: someone was telling me about the movie Project Grizzly today… and all I could think of was … wow the guy sounds like he need help
[19:07] Dogen Coldstream: wazzat?
[19:07] Solari Georgia: Project Grizzly?
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: oh it is a movie about a guy trying to ma
ke a bear proof suit…
[19:07] Gar Hallard: my little boy said he made ‘good choices’ today at school
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: he wanted to be a jaques cousteau of bears
[19:07] Gar Hallard: smiles
[19:07] Dogen Coldstream: gar: cool
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: what choices?
[19:08] Gar Hallard: good ones
[19:08] Gar Hallard: you know like not karate chop the other kids
[19:08] Gar Hallard: or pull the fire alarm
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[19:08] Gar Hallard: he’s done both
[19:08] Solari Georgia: acculturation
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: lil rascal
[19:08] Dharma Voyager: hehehehe
[19:09] Dharma Voyager: did you teach him to pull the fire alarm?
[19:09] Dharma Voyager: hey craig welcome
[19:09] Dharma Voyager: next point
[19:09] Solari Georgia: Hi Craig
[19:09] Craig Jeffries: hi
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: some one tell craig of our group while I get the next point up
[19:10] Solari Georgia: close friend of Dogen
[19:10] Gar Hallard: oh no he figured it out on his own
[19:10] Dogen Coldstream: I’m cuddly, that’s why
[19:10] Gar Hallard: hey craig
[19:10] Craig Jeffries: hi
[19:10] Craig Jeffries: so is this a recording cuz I can hear anything
[19:10] Dogen Coldstream: warning craig: anything you say here can be used against you/ or at least logged and put onto Dharma’s blog
[19:11] Craig Jeffries: ok
[19:11] Craig Jeffries: how does this work?
[19:11] Dogen Coldstream: we are just discussing…
[19:11] Solari Georgia: and have strayed a bit from the material..
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[19:12] Craig Jeffries: is there someone on my lap?
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: sorry lagg
[19:12] Dogen Coldstream: or vice versa
[19:12] Danaeah Ballinger: vice versa
[19:12] Danaeah Ballinger: Dogen is easily mistaken for a cushion
[19:12] Solari Georgia: : )
[19:12] Dogen Coldstream: I am kind of round
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: ok next discussion point

Resistance to change: “One must begin that process by appreciating the impermanent, transient nature of our existence. All things, events, and phenomena are dynamic, changing every moment, nothing remains static….So at any given moment, no matter how pleasant your experience may be, it will not last. This becomes the basis of a category of suffering known in Buddhism as the “suffering of change”.

[19:12] Dharma Voyager: Resistance to change: “One must begin that process by appreciating the impermanent, transient nature of our existence. All things, events, and phenomena are dynamic, changing every moment, nothing remains static….So at any given moment, no matter how pleasant your experience may be, it will not last. This becomes the basis of a category of suffering known in Buddhism as the “suffering of change”.
[19:12] Craig Jeffries: wow didn’t mean to get fresh
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: hahahah
[19:12] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[19:13] Dharma Voyager: you will fit right in
[19:13] Craig Jeffries: I am dealing with this now well for a year
[19:13] Dharma Voyager: how so craig?
[19:13] Craig Jeffries: pinched nerve
[19:14] Dogen Coldstream: ahh… that sucks
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: that dies suck
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: does
[19:14] Craig Jeffries: feeling down so I thought go find some direction trough Buddhism since all life is suffering it just took me 20 years to experience it
[19:14] Craig Jeffries: 30 years
[19:15] Craig Jeffries: if I didn’t have family that I cared about it I wouldn’t even bother being here
[19:15] Dogen Coldstream: chronic pain has got to be the worst. are you on any painkillers?
[19:15] Craig Jeffries: lots
[19:15] stevenaia Michinaga: pass’em around
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: hehe
[19:15] Dogen Coldstream: none for steve
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: down stevie down
[19:16] stevenaia Michinaga: am I drooling?
[19:16] Craig Jeffries: I tried to quit recently as a experiment to see if they were just fooling me since I have been taking them so long
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: what did you find?
[19:16] Craig Jeffries: went five days without
[19:17] Craig Jeffries: that it was my condition that caused the pain not the pills tolerance that was fooling me
[19:17] Craig Jeffries: I feel pretty hopeless right now
[19:17] Craig Jeffries: I just started taking them again today
[19:17] Dogen Coldstream: that sounds like a good thing
[19:18] Craig Jeffries: no its not I am tired of everything to do with it
[19:18] stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off, see you all soon
[19:18] Craig Jeffries: pills pain epidural cost of doctor visits pills
[19:18] Dharma Voyager: nite nite stevie..
[19:18] Dogen Coldstream: see ya stevey
[19:18] Solari Georgia: see ya Steve *hugs*
[19:18] Craig Jeffries: it was nice to sit on you
[19:18] Dharma Voyager: we have a few more points from the dalai lama… would you like to read more?
[19:18] Gar Hallard: nite steven
[19:19] Danaeah Ballinger: I think this is a very powerful forum, but it sounds to me like you need some help in the physical world
[19:19] Craig Jeffries: jk I am not like that
[19:19] Danaeah Ballinger: I need to get going and get a bite to eat
[19:19] Craig Jeffries: I know
[19:19] Solari Georgia: perhaps we can save chapter 10 for next time
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: good point Dani
[19:19] Craig Jeffries: my mother and brother convinced me that I needed off em
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: sounds good solari
[19:19] Danaeah Ballinger: like a counselor, or doctor, or NA, depending on your circumstances, and how much it troubles you

[19:19] Craig Jeffries: my mother is a former drug alcohol counselor
[19:20] Craig Jeffries: I only take as directed
[19:20] Danaeah Ballinger: I’ve worked with people as a clinical intern and am in a 12 step program myself
[19:20] Danaeah Ballinger: and that may be all right
[19:20] Danaeah Ballinger: you better believe I took them after a surgery
[19:20] Craig Jeffries: I am scared if I try to tell someone of the depths I have hit they will try to get me a nice white jacket and a padded room
[19:21] Danaeah Ballinger: anyway, I need to run
[19:21] Craig Jeffries: jacket
[19:21] Dogen Coldstream: See ya Dani!
[19:21] Craig Jeffries: nice meeting you
[19:21] Danaeah Ballinger: good night all
[19:21] Solari Georgia: laters D
[19:21] Danaeah Ballinger: hope to see you again here Craig

Chronic pain is certainly a challenge many of us have to face.  Although Buddhism has some wonderful tools to help with suffering, it usually doesn’t work “in a pinch” as well as calling up a local doctor.  

Hang in there.  Don’t forget to breathe.