Discussion Notes March 24rh – Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind

I have been really excited about reading this book with the group.  It has been a long time since I have read it, and with my memory I’m not sure that reading it before really counts.  The thing I do remember is that it is an extraordinary book.  I can use the word extraordinary” with little uncertainty, because I know I’m not alone in thinking this.  Zen Mind, Beginner’s mind has been in print since it was first printed. 

Tonight’s Zen minds was brought to you by :  Dogen Coldstream, Renwick Tomsen, Solari Georgia, Danaeah Ballinger, and me.

[18:09] Solari Georgia: So Dani
[18:10] Danaeah Ballinger: yes, Solari?
[18:10] Dharma Voyager: sorry me late
[18:10] Renwick Tomsen: Hiyrta
[18:10] Dogen Coldstream: Hello Dharma and her bum
[18:10] Renwick Tomsen: Hiya
[18:10] Solari Georgia: How many Zen masters does it take to put in a light bulb.
[18:10] Dharma Voyager: yous all gray
[18:10] Dharma Voyager: hehehehhe
[18:10] Danaeah Ballinger: hmmmmm
[18:10] Danaeah Ballinger: I’m guessing just the One
[18:10] Dharma Voyager: I think me bumm preceded me
[18:10] Solari Georgia: the Zen Master is the light bulb
[18:10] Dharma Voyager: hehehe
[18:11] Danaeah Ballinger: ahhhh very good
[18:11] Dharma Voyager: take this pebble from my hand
[18:11] Dharma Voyager: my other hand
[18:11] Dharma Voyager: ok well I dropped it
[18:11] Dharma Voyager: ouch
[18:11] Dharma Voyager: hit my head against yours
[18:11] Solari Georgia: hard to type with pebbles
[18:11] Danaeah Ballinger: no pebble and likewise no lack of pebble
[18:11] Dharma Voyager: ok let’s forget the pebble thing
[18:12] Danaeah Ballinger: lets
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: got some chopsticks?
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: buzzzzzzzz
[18:12] Dogen Coldstream: wait: if you bump heads with somebody, does that mean you will fall in love?
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: ummm
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: wait a second
[18:12] Dogen Coldstream: I saw that in a movie once
[18:12] Dogen Coldstream: ouch
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: ouch
[18:12] Danaeah Ballinger: (impressionable, isn’t he)
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: did you fall in love?
[18:12] Dogen Coldstream: too late
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: awww damn… quick someone else do it
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: checks for steve
[18:13] Solari Georgia: clunnk
[18:13] Dogen Coldstream: /shout Steve-o!
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: hmmm not online from what I can tell.. he dropped off a few moments ago
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: oh well shall we get started?
[18:13] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[18:13] Dogen Coldstream: yes
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: okie dokie
[18:14] Dharma Voyager: point numero uno
[18:14] Danaeah Ballinger: en Espanol, por favor
[18:14] Solari Georgia: (Thunder and lightning..potential for power loss)
[18:14] Danaeah Ballinger: ok

Forward

If when I die, the moment I am dying, if I suffer that is alright, you know; That is suffering Buddha. No confusion in it. Maybe everyone will struggle because of the physical agony or spiritual agony, too. But that is alright, that is not a problem.

[18:14] Dharma Voyager: Forward If when I die, the moment I am dying, if I suffer that is alright, you know; That is suffering Buddha. No confusion in it. Maybe everyone will struggle because of the physical agony or spiritual agony, too. But that is alright, that is not a problem.
[18:14] Danaeah Ballinger: fingers crossed
[18:14] Dharma Voyager: quando yo… wait Spanish would take much too long
[18:15] Solari Georgia: si
[18:15] Dogen Coldstream: Not sure why I picked this point, except it kind of sets the tone for how he talks I like the way he thinks
[18:15] Dharma Voyager: cool I was going to ask you about this one
[18:16] Danaeah Ballinger: what do you like about this quote, Dogen?
[18:16] Dogen Coldstream: hmmmm
[18:17] Dogen Coldstream: well… just the idea that this is nothing to be upset about. just part of life.
[18:17] Solari Georgia: or a moment of joy..if you owe taxes
[18:17] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[18:18] Danaeah Ballinger: At first glance, it seems strange.
[18:18] Dogen Coldstream: taking my debts with me to the grave!
[18:18] Dogen Coldstream: strange how?
[18:18] Danaeah Ballinger: well, its one thing to say my own suffering is quite all right
[18:18] Danaeah Ballinger: but for me to say yours is no big deal is a bit strange
[18:19] Danaeah Ballinger: I mean yes, if we have been studying the heart sutra, if we have that vocabulary
[18:19] Danaeah Ballinger: but "oh, you are dying of cancer, no biggie"
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: I dunno… after a lifetime of suffering perhaps a little at the end doesn’t seem that bad
[18:19] Danaeah Ballinger: not too skillful IMO
[18:19] Dogen Coldstream: yeah, he moves back and forth between the absolute viewpoint and the relative one… much like Dogen does, I guess
[18:20] Dharma Voyager: please explain those two points again
[18:20] Dharma Voyager: I think you mentioned them last time
[18:20] Solari Georgia: it seems odd to me to use death as a metaphor for Buddha nature..unless I’m not getting this
[18:20] Dogen Coldstream: I think he was getting close to his own death when he said that
[18:20] Dharma Voyager: I meant relative and absolute.. sorry
[18:21] Dogen Coldstream: ah… same thing we talk about a couple of weeks ago
[18:21] Danaeah Ballinger: I guess from th BIG MIND perspective, physical death is no more tragic than sunset at the end of the day
[18:21] Danaeah Ballinger: but
[18:21] Dogen Coldstream: relative being our normal dualistic viewpoint "the 10000 dharmas"
[18:21] Danaeah Ballinger: from the suffering sentient being view, its scary
[18:21] Solari Georgia: providing there is more "life"
[18:21] Dogen Coldstream: absolute being the "one with everything" viewpoint
[18:21] Danaeah Ballinger: well I’m convinced there is, and so, I think, was Suzuki
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: Prologue In beginner’s mind there are possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few.
[18:24] Solari Georgia: yes, I’m not going to bite on that last reference
[18:25] Dharma Voyager: great quote
[18:25] Dharma Voyager: someone quoted me that on twitter too I thin it is very popular
[18:25] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:25] Dogen Coldstream: what is that story about the zen master who offers the disciple tea…
[18:25] Dogen Coldstream: and keeps pouring and pouring
[18:26] Dogen Coldstream: the tea running on the group
[18:26] Dogen Coldstream: ground
[18:26] Dogen Coldstream: the point being that the master cannot teach the disciple if his mind is already full of stuff
[18:27] Dogen Coldstream: if you are already an "expert"… you already have the answers, right?
[18:27] Dharma Voyager: from my own experience, I can totally see that
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: my job is to find solutions… I have to always remind myself there is always another way
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: the minute I’m not open to another way… is usually when I can look foolish
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: or do look foolish
[18:29] Danaeah Ballinger: I was recalling my initial excitement and wonder at SL. Everything was like Dan Ackroyd in Ghostbusters – "Oh Cool, a fireman’s pole!!!!!&quot
;
[18:29] Dogen Coldstream: yes
[18:30] Danaeah Ballinger: Things need renewal from time to time
[18:30] Danaeah Ballinger: perhaps all activities
[18:30] Dharma Voyager: next point?

Posture

These forms are not a means of attaining the right state of mind. To take this posture is itself to have the right state of mind. There is no need to obtain some special state of mind.

[18:30] Dharma Voyager: Posture These forms are not a means of attaining the right state of mind. To take this posture is itself to have the right state of mind. There is no need to obtain some special state of mind.
[18:30] Dharma Voyager: brilliant
[18:30] Danaeah Ballinger: that is really intriguing.
[18:31] Danaeah Ballinger: Cause I *always* in the back of my mind, think of attaining something
[18:31] Dogen Coldstream: yeah… I think he is trying to get us away from that thought. difficult for me, certainly
[18:31] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[18:31] Solari Georgia: this goes with the idea the enlightenment is already actually there…just unfound
[18:32] Danaeah Ballinger: yes
[18:32] Dogen Coldstream: yeah… if you are sitting, you are a sitting buddha. like the first quote above about being a dying buddha
[18:32] Dogen Coldstream: if you sleep: sleeping buddha
[18:32] Danaeah Ballinger: Like the story told by the woman giving Dharma talks on Tricycle – when she was "looking for mushrooms" she could not find any – when she opened her eyes, there they were
[18:33] Dharma Voyager: being in the NW… I have actually had that same experience
[18:33] Dharma Voyager: little fuckers
[18:33] Dogen Coldstream: been there. do you know how much morels look like pine cones?
[18:33] Solari Georgia: LOL
[18:33] Dharma Voyager: then poof they are all right there in front of you
[18:33] Dogen Coldstream: hiding in plain site
[18:34] Dharma Voyager: once your brain sees them then you can SEE them
[18:34] Danaeah Ballinger: plus this week I was thinking of psychology of acupuncture and acupressure – pretty much accepted now, how it can affect consciousness – so these postures are honed by thousands of years of practice – a 5000 yr old seal at Mojenjo Daro was found with someone sitting full lotus
[18:34] Renwick Tomsen: and that is th morel of the story
[18:34] Dharma Voyager: HAHAHAHHA
[18:34] Dogen Coldstream: nyuk nyuk nyuk
[18:34] Solari Georgia: morsel of the story?
[18:35] Renwick Tomsen: sorry. bad
[18:35] Danaeah Ballinger: @@ quit it Ren!
[18:35] Dharma Voyager: Renny Renny Renny…. I could maul you… laughs
[18:35] Dogen Coldstream: got my 3 stooges laughs going over here
[18:35] Solari Georgia: Ren doesn’t think outside the box…he’s thinking of outside the sphere
[18:35] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:35] Dogen Coldstream: so we are already mushrooms, we just can’t see ourselves yet
[18:36] Danaeah Ballinger: that would be the forced analogy dogen
[18:36] Dharma Voyager: didn’t we already have the shitting in shit discussion?
[18:36] Danaeah Ballinger: beg pardon?
[18:36] Dharma Voyager: you missed that week…
[18:36] Danaeah Ballinger: I guess
[18:36] Dharma Voyager: very fertile conversation
[18:36] Danaeah Ballinger: I always preferred the more demure, fish looking for water analogy
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: I liked the shit one
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: laughs
[18:37] Danaeah Ballinger: I’m sure!
[18:37] Dogen Coldstream: you know what fish do in that water, right?
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: hahahha
[18:37] Dogen Coldstream: anyway
[18:37] Danaeah Ballinger: zip, Dogen!
[18:37] Dogen Coldstream: grin
[18:37] Dogen Coldstream: next point
[18:37] Danaeah Ballinger: think we better!
[18:37] Solari Georgia: please

The position expresses the oneness of duality: not two and not one. This is the most important teaching… Our body and mind are not two and not one. If you think your body and mind are two, that is wrong; if you think that they are one, that is also wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one.

[18:38] Dharma Voyager: The position expresses the oneness of duality: not two and not one. This is the most important teaching… Our body and mind are not two and not one. If you think your body and mind are two, that is wrong; if you think that they are one, that is also wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one.
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: pulling out the carpet
[18:39] Danaeah Ballinger: Now that, I really enjoy
[18:39] Danaeah Ballinger: kind of a demo of how our concepts fall short of experience
[18:39] Dogen Coldstream: I think the ladies missed the discussion where Enkyo was talking about jumping above the absolute and the relative viewpoints
[18:39] Solari Georgia: fall short?
[18:39] Danaeah Ballinger: I guess he does that all the time but this one I can understand
[18:39] Dogen Coldstream: it reminds me of this
[18:40] Dogen Coldstream: where she was discussing the first 3 lines of the genjokoan
[18:40] Dharma Voyager: nods
[18:40] Danaeah Ballinger: first talk I think
[18:40] Danaeah Ballinger: BTW, they are now available as free pod casts on iTunes
[18:40] Danaeah Ballinger: the Tricycle talks
[18:40] Dogen Coldstream: cool
[18:40] Danaeah Ballinger: link from the web site
[18:40] Dharma Voyager: nice
[18:41] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:41] Solari Georgia: wait…
[18:41] Dharma Voyager: looking for points from first discussion
[18:41] Dharma Voyager: okie dokie
[18:41] Solari Georgia: what did you mean Dani…fall short?
[18:41] Danaeah Ballinger: let me look back and see what I meant
[18:41] Solari Georgia:
[18:41] Danaeah Ballinger: oh ok
[18:42] Danaeah Ballinger: "one" and "two" are concepts
[18:42] Danaeah Ballinger: not things
[18:42] Danaeah Ballinger: one analogy Ive used before is state and natural boundaries
[18:42] Danaeah Ballinger: our concepts our maps, etc, are not visible in nature
[18:43] Dogen Coldstream: like pictures of the earth from space: where the heck are the lines!?!?
[18:43] Danaeah Ballinger: right
[18:43] Danaeah Ballinger: like body mind, one or two, which is it?
[18:43] Danaeah Ballinger: I get that
[18:43] Dogen Coldstream: if I close one eye and squint from one direction, it looks like "two"
[18:43] Danaeah Ballinger: how it is my mind that causes separation
[18:44] Danaeah Ballinger: the notion that I don’t have enough
[18:44] Danaeah Ballinger: I gotta get something over there, etc
[18:44] Danaeah Ballinger: or even my first objection
[18:44] Danaeah Ballinger: about pain and suffering associated with dying
[18:44] Danaeah Ballinger: how much of that do my thoughts contribute
[18:45] Danaeah Ballinger: I think he is hammering that from many different angles
[18:45] Danaeah Ballinger: (the end)
[18:45] Solari Georgia: TY
[18:46] Dogen Coldstream: I need to close my other eyes, and squint from the other direction, I guess, to see the "one"

this was the discussion point from the first dharma talk: The Buddha Way, in essence, is leaping clear of abundance and lack; thus there are birth and death, delusions and realization, sentient beings and buddhas. The transcendence of Nirvana and Samsara. The reason lotus flowers are not stained with mud as that they are free within the mud.

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/blockquote>

[18:46] Dharma Voyager: this was the discussion point from the first dharma talk: The Buddha Way, in essence, is leaping clear of abundance and lack; thus there are birth and death, delusions and realization, sentient beings and buddhas. The transcendence of Nirvana and Samsara. The reason lotus flowers are not stained with mud as that they are free within the mud.
[18:46] Dharma Voyager: the lotus flower in the mud
[18:46] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:47] Danaeah Ballinger: aye, and nowhere in nature does it say flowers are better than mud
[18:47] Danaeah Ballinger: next

Buddha… studied many religions, but he was not satisfied with their practices… He was not interested in some metaphysical existence, but in his own body and mind, here and now. And when he found himself, he found that everything that exists has Buddha nature. The state of mind that exists when you sit in the right posture is, itself, enlightenment.

[18:47] Dharma Voyager: Buddha… studied many religions, but he was not satisfied with their practices… He was not interested in some metaphysical existence, but in his own body and mind, here and now. And when he found himself, he found that everything that exists has Buddha nature. The state of mind that exists when you sit in the right posture is, itself, enlightenment.
[18:48] Dogen Coldstream: I think the Soto way is: keep sitting long enough, and you will realize that too
[18:48] Dogen Coldstream: something like that
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: next point?

Breathing

If you think “I breathe”, the “I” is extra. There is no you to say “I”. What we call ‘I’ is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no “I”, no world, no mind or body; just a swinging door.

[18:48] Dharma Voyager: Breathing If you think “I breathe”, the “I” is extra. There is no you to say “I”. What we call ‘I’ is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no “I”, no world, no mind or body; just a swinging door.
[18:49] Danaeah Ballinger: This one, I think, is experiential
[18:49] Danaeah Ballinger: something we can discover ourselves through attention to the breath
[18:50] Dogen Coldstream: I get a glimmer of what he is talking about here… I need to site more
[18:50] Danaeah Ballinger: testimonial – I have this tendency to be attracted to complex meditations. And this group in particular, and especially the Tricycle big sit have reminded me of the beauty and power of simplicity in meditation
[18:51] Danaeah Ballinger: I think just watch the breath and those little glimmers of no self are amazingly accessible
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:52] Dogen Coldstream: I usually just do counting the breath, or watching the breath, though I ‘d like to do other meditations if I could find the time Attendees will be provided with supplemental materials to help them with the topic and the group will meet generally for an hour or hour and a half. We hope to see everyone here and have a lively discussion! http://slurl.com/secondlife/Snowlion%20Mountain/129/50/36
[18:52] Danaeah Ballinger: in the zen tradition, you could take a look at Phillip Kaplow’s "Three Pillars of Zen"
[18:53] Danaeah Ballinger: cause the next one (tho they will NOT call it a sequence) is "just sitting"
[18:53] Dogen Coldstream: yeah… I think of myself as too drifty for that
[18:53] Danaeah Ballinger: I find I *love* just counting the breath
[18:54] Danaeah Ballinger: like for 90 days, just enjoy the simplicity
[18:54] Danaeah Ballinger: used to think I should be "more advanced" than that
[18:55] Dharma Voyager: are we ready for the next point?
[18:55] Dogen Coldstream: sure
[18:55] Danaeah Ballinger: I think so

So when you practice zazen, there is no idea of time or space… This moment the swinging door is opening in one direction, and the next moment the swinging door will be opening in the opposite direction… Here there is no idea of time or space. Time and space are one… At one o’clock you will eat your lunch. To eat lunch is itself one o’clock… To someone who actually appreciates our life, they are the same.

[18:55] Dharma Voyager: So when you practice zazen, there is no idea of time or space… This moment the swinging door is opening in one direction, and the next moment the swinging door will be opening in the opposite direction… Here there is no idea of time or space. Time and space are one… At one o’clock you will eat your lunch. To eat lunch is itself one o’clock… To someone who actually appreciates our life, they are the same.
[18:56] Danaeah Ballinger: I’ve told Solari, I always appreciated someone who painted a piece of graffiti on the local library steps – "Time does not exist – only clocks exist"
[18:57] Dharma Voyager: I think that is the last point
[18:58] Dogen Coldstream: I have a hard time wrapping my mind around this philosophy of time
[18:58] Solari Georgia:
[18:58] Danaeah Ballinger: well yeah!!!!!
[18:58] Dogen Coldstream: I have seen it before, Dogen has a whole thing on it
[18:58] Danaeah Ballinger: I mean isn’t it true that the Original Dogen
[18:58] Danaeah Ballinger: yes!!!!
[18:58] Dogen Coldstream: Uji, I think
[18:58] Solari Georgia: Read..Special Relativity…by A Einstein
[18:58] Danaeah Ballinger: how "time" is a concept – but still burning wood becomes ash somehow
[18:59] Dharma Voyager: I don’t think there is much too it most of the time really
[18:59] Dogen Coldstream: Einstein I get, I think. Dogen is still beyond me. I’m trying, though.
[18:59] Dharma Voyager: I think you guys are thinking too much about it
[18:59] Solari Georgia: oops,…(sp)
[18:59] Danaeah Ballinger: that would be my M.O.
[19:00] Danaeah Ballinger: think too much
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: think twice speak once?
[19:00] Danaeah Ballinger: babble now, regret later
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: there is no time and space in the present
[19:00] Dogen Coldstream: I have a tendency to do that… maybe think 50 times speak once
[19:01] Dogen Coldstream: I suspect that there are people out there that think I’m retarded
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: hahah you are really being kind
[19:01] Solari Georgia: did you ride the short bus?
[19:01] Danaeah Ballinger: hahaha
[19:01] Dogen Coldstream: Only lately
[19:01] Solari Georgia: so there…you’re not retarded
[19:02] Dogen Coldstream: was this about the right amount of reading? should next week be more or less?
[19:02] Danaeah Ballinger: I think that’s about the right amount with this book
[19:02] Dharma Voyager: are you include the intros etc?
[19:03] Danaeah Ballinger: dense stuff
[19:03] Dharma Voyager: intros?
[19:03] Dharma Voyager: sorry
[19:03] Dogen Coldstream: I didn’t count that… let’s see
[19:03] Dharma Voyager: I certainly recommend reading them if people have not… it puts the writing in context
[19:03] Dharma Voyager: have not
[19:04] Renwick Tomsen: it does this when its told?
[19:04] Renwick Tomsen: sorry
[19:04] Dharma Voyager: huh?
[19:04] Dharma Voyager: wrong window?
[19:04] Dharma Voyager: lmao
[19:04] R
enwick Tomsen: nope. bad silence of the lambs reference
[19:04] Dharma Voyager: HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
[19:04] Dharma Voyager: ok now I got it
[19:05] Dharma Voyager: is that like it puts the lotion on its skin?
[19:05] Dogen Coldstream: or it gets the hose
[19:05] Renwick Tomsen: definitely
[19:05] Dharma Voyager: kk
[19:05] Dogen Coldstream: OK, so for next week…
[19:06] Solari Georgia: with a plate of farve beans…not sure what a farve bean is…or if its spelled right
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: fava… rather large distinctly tasting beans
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: distinct
[19:07] Dogen Coldstream: Control through The Marrow of Zen, maybe? 9 pages?
[19:07] Dogen Coldstream: or more?
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: maybe one more
[19:07] Dogen Coldstream: through No Dualism… that’s 3 more pages
[19:08] Danaeah Ballinger: give us a page # please
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: I have 31 through 43
[19:08] Solari Georgia: I think our copies are consistent with the page numbering
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: if all editions are the same
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: good
[19:08] Danaeah Ballinger: ok
[19:08] Danaeah Ballinger: goes up to "bowing"
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: yeah
[19:08] Solari Georgia: yes
[19:09] Danaeah Ballinger: mine is a very old edition but prolly the same
[19:09] Dogen Coldstream: I think they just keep reprinting from the same plates
[19:09] Dogen Coldstream: It’s a beautiful book, why mess with it
[19:09] Solari Georgia: 15 editions in 2005…popular book

Thanks again everyone.  Namaste.