Discussion Notes June 7th – Hardcore Zen – Pass Me the Ecstasy Rainbow, I’m Going to Nirvana on a Stretcher!, Eating a Tangerine is Real Enlightenment, Hardcore Zen, Epilogue

This is the last night of our discussion group for the summer.  We plan to regroup again in October around the 1st.  The group may take a little different form if we regroup. I am taking suggestions now about how we can change the group for the better.  We may even be consider opening up the group to the public.

In reflection of the past discussion groups I wish I had all of the notes I had taken at the beginning of this group. As you may recognize I usually like to review what the vision I had when I start something and review how it actually turned out.  I had many goals that were important to me from within this group, but If I had an primary agenda it would simply have been to find a group of people, as eager as I was, to learn about the topic of Buddhism. The group was primarily meet and explore the different views of Buddhism on a regular basis. 

It was not so difficult to get the group started mainly because of my avatar name. “Dharma Voyager.”  That name over time had led various people in Second Life to ask me about a topic I knew very little about but had hoped to one day learn, Buddhism.  This made it easy to find people who were also interested in the same topic.  The concept of the group as well as the methods that we used to keep it consistent was an accumulation of wisdom from many people, some of those people were frequent visitors to the group, and some were not.  Some who had influenced the group had not shown up at all.  All those who have contributed to the group and the body of knowledge I gained from the group are forever considered my sangha. 

One concept, “Sangha,” a term that I have grown to a slow and more deep understanding through out these months, has made seeing how people, for good or for bad, become a part of everything around them, including other people. 

I would like to give a hearty “thanks” and show some appreciation to those of who participated in one or more of our discussion groups. We have had over 50 discussions in total, discussing 6 books and a variety of audios, videos, and other materials related to Buddhism.  These are the people who made the journey fun, interesting, informative, and challenging:

• Dogen Coldstream
• Renwick Tomsen
• stevenaia Michinaga
• Arawn Spitteler
• Solari Georgia
• Danaeah Ballinger
• Skarat Lefebvre
• Cyrus1 Robonaught
• NTropy Sellers
• Mackena GossipGirl
• AuroraSkye Ashton
• Ayesha Rasmuson
• Diezel Tone
• Craig Jeffries
• Gar Hallard
• Rowan Masala
• Magdalena Colclough
• Tarmel Udimo
• Corvuscorva Nightfire
• Mike Burleigh
• James Kazyanenko
• Mavrick Aero
• Narris Lorefield
• Kallie Faulkes
• Twa Hinkle
• Areal Loonie
• Holden Henig
• Shakti Sideways
• Tasmin Beaumont
• Terrence Zhangsun
• Pema Pera
• sharron Nikolaidis

Thanks to all of you. A heartfelt namaste.

Tonight’s impermanence was brought to you by the following Sangha members: Dogen Coldstream, Renwick Tomsen, stevenaia Michinaga, Arawn Spitteler, and me.

[17:56] stevenaia Michinaga: hey there
[17:56] Dharma Voyager: hey!
[17:56] Dharma Voyager: how goes things ?
[17:56] stevenaia Michinaga: busy
[17:56] stevenaia Michinaga:
[17:56] stevenaia Michinaga: a good thong
[17:56] Dharma Voyager: is that a bad thing?
[17:56] stevenaia Michinaga: no
[17:57] stevenaia Michinaga: to many vacations, not enough money
[17:57] Dharma Voyager: yeah…
[17:57] Dharma Voyager: I was looking for music and events… but I suppose I need to look for more free ones
[17:58] : Dogen Coldstream sounds the friendship bell…
[17:58] : A reminder to be… mindful…
[17:58] Dharma Voyager: hey there
[17:58] Renwick Tomsen: Hiyas
[17:58] stevenaia Michinaga: hi there
[17:58] stevenaia Michinaga: er
[17:58] stevenaia Michinaga: Ren
[17:59] stevenaia Michinaga: hi Arawn
[17:59] Renwick Tomsen: Hi Arawn. Long time no see.
[17:59] Dharma Voyager: hey there
[18:00] TeaCup whispers: Tea Time!!
[18:00] stevenaia Michinaga: yo dog
[18:00] Arawn Spitteler: Just came from a discussion of Bateson, who was big in Double Bind Theory
[18:00] Dharma Voyager: what’s that?
[18:00] Renwick Tomsen: double bind. rope play?
[18:00] Renwick Tomsen:
[18:01] Arawn Spitteler: When two urgencies of equal importance collide.
[18:01] Renwick Tomsen: interesting
[18:01] Dharma Voyager: what was the theory?
[18:01] Dogen Coldstream: hiyas all
[18:01] Arawn Spitteler: I’m not sure he actually had a theory, but taught an observation
[18:02] Dharma Voyager: sorry we were trying to choose what opera we may watch this year or two
[18:02] Dharma Voyager: so how could we apply it to operas?
[18:02] Renwick Tomsen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind#Usage_in_Zen_Buddhism
[18:02] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:02] Arawn Spitteler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind
[18:02] Dharma Voyager: thanks renny
[18:03] Arawn Spitteler: I understand Gregory Bateson had some interest in Zen
[18:04] Dharma Voyager: very interesting
[18:04] Dogen Coldstream: So, I understand this will be our last scheduled meeting for a while
[18:05] Dharma Voyager: hahah … the link you sent arawn sounds a lot like passive aggression… at least the first part
[18:05] Dharma Voyager: I think that was that everyone agreed with?
[18:06] Renwick Tomsen: yes
[18:06] Dharma Voyager: solari won’t be here… I’m not sure about Dani
[18:06] Dharma Voyager: was there a question Dogen?
[18:06] Dogen Coldstream: Well, I guess I was going to give everybody a chance to jump in and say we should just continue through the summer
[18:07] Dogen Coldstream: which I am not opposed to, if anybody wants to
[18:07] Dharma Voyager: I think the only one who had any question on the topic was Solari
[18:07] Dharma Voyager: but she is not here
[18:07] Dharma Voyager: Steve wasn’t here either
[18:07] Dogen Coldstream pokes Steve
[18:07] Dharma Voyager: (covers eyes)
[18:08] Dogen Coldstream: not that kind
[18:08] Dharma Voyager: what kind?
[18:08] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:08] Dharma Voyager: I’ll start in a couple minutes
[18:09] Dharma Voyager: looks like stevie is sleeping
[18:09] Dharma Voyager: ok first point

Pass Me the Ecstasy Rainbow, I’m Going to Nirvana on a Stretcher!

The very good reason most Western Buddhist teachers don’t talk much about the druggy days of their youth is because there are always guys around who’ll latch onto any little scrap to justify their own predilection for getting wasted. Zig Zag Zen contributor Rick Fields tells the story – probably apocryphal – of how Nagarjuna, one of Buddhism’s most brilliant poet-philosophers, told one of his disciples to accept only whatever food could fit on the end of a pin. The disciple came back with a pancake balanced on a pin. Fields tries to use this as evidence that Nagarjuna’s real source of inspiration was magic mushrooms – since, y’know, a mushroom sorta looks a little like a pancake balanced on top of a
pin if you think about it hard enough (especially if your thinking about it while tripped out on ‘shrooms). So while I’m personally reluctant to drag those skeletons out of my own closet, the existence of Zig Zag Zen dubious claims of being the first it’s necessary to address what really shouldn’t even be an issue at all.

[18:09] Dharma Voyager: Pass Me the Ecstasy Rainbow, I’m Going to Nirvana on a Stretcher!
The very good reason most Western Buddhist teachers don’t talk much about the druggy days of their youth is because there are always guys around who’ll latch onto any little scrap to justify their own predilection for getting wasted. Zig Zag Zen contributor Rick Fields tells the story – probably apocryphal – of how Nagarjuna, one of Buddhism’s most brilliant poet-philosophers, told one of his disciples to accept only whatever food could fit on the end of a pin. The disciple came back with a pancake balanced on a pin. Fields tries to use this as evidence that Nagarjuna’s real source of inspiration was magic mushrooms – since, y’know, a mushroom sorta looks a little like a pancake balanced on top of a pin if you think about it hard enough (especially if your thinking about it while tripped out on ‘shrooms). So while I’m personally reluctant to drag those skeletons out of my own closet, the existence of Zig Zag Zen d
[18:10] Dharma Voyager: dubious claims of being the first it’s necessary to address what really shouldn’t even be an issue at all.
[18:11] Renwick Tomsen: and it is easy to justify a lot of things
[18:11] Dogen Coldstream: I was just having a conversation about this with a friend, as to whether the drug usage of our youth was useful or not
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: I think he said his was
[18:12] Renwick Tomsen: acid might have been. pot not so much.
[18:12] Dogen Coldstream: Yeah, he said yes, I thought not
[18:12] Dharma Voyager: I thought you may have alluded too that you may have over done it?
[18:12] Dogen Coldstream: yeah, probably too many trips
[18:13] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:13] Renwick Tomsen: sure


Buddhism isn’t about anything so diminutive as any of your mental states at all. It’s much deeper than that.

There is no optimal state of consciousness. Optimal is just an idea, another manifestation of the Great Somewhere Else. Consciousness is just an idea. The notion that you can take a drug to get enlightened is as sensible as thinking you can take off the weight gained from twenty years of shoveling nothing but Oreos, Pringles, and Big Macs down your gullet by swallowing a few miracle diet pills. It’s big money for big business, but if you’re eating three meals a day at Mickey D’s you’re gonna be taking up two seats on a 747 regardless of how many pills you pop.

[18:13] Dharma Voyager: Buddhism isn’t about anything so diminutive as any of your mental states at all. It’s much deeper than that.
There is no optimal state of consciousness. Optimal is just an idea, another manifestation of the Great Somewhere Else. Consciousness is just an idea. The notion that you can take a drug to get enlightened is as sensible as thinking you can take off the weight gained from twenty years of shoveling nothing but Oreos, Pringles, and Big Macs down your gullet by swallowing a few miracle diet pills. It’s big money for big business, but if you’re eating three meals a day at Mickey D’s you’re gonna be taking up two seats on a 747 regardless of how many pills you pop.
[18:14] Arawn Spitteler: Boing should make the seats wider
[18:14] Dharma Voyager: Ahh I remember what I was going to type… the author… he mentioned that those experiences brought on by drugs are real… but he wished people would just admit that they were getting loaded because they wanted to.. .not make an excuse that it was for an religious experience
[18:14] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:14] Dogen Coldstream: things do seem to take an inordinate amount of time in the real world. Wouldn’t it be nice if everything was as quick as in second life
[18:15] Dharma Voyager: something’s quick somethings slow
[18:15] Dharma Voyager: all the context I suppose
[18:15] Dharma Voyager: seats wider or hats …
[18:15] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:15] Renwick Tomsen: sure

Are the visions you can experience on LSD “real” religious visions? Sure they are. And as such they are worse than useless. Religious visions and acid experiences are both fantasies, delusions, projections of your own hidden desires. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the truth, nothing to do with reality. You learn even less about the true nature of reality from such fantasies than from watching a few hours of cartoons on Saturday morning. Chasing after fantasies is always a bad idea. Stick with reality. Reality’s all you’ve got. But here’s the real secret, the real miracle: It’s enough.

[18:15] Dharma Voyager: Are the visions you can experience on LSD “real” religious visions? Sure they are. And as such they are worse than useless. Religious visions and acid experiences are both fantasies, delusions, projections of your own hidden desires. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the truth, nothing to do with reality. You learn even less about the true nature of reality from such fantasies than from watching a few hours of cartoons on Saturday morning. Chasing after fantasies is always a bad idea. Stick with reality. Reality’s all you’ve got. But here’s the real secret, the real miracle: It’s enough.
[18:16] Dharma Voyager: oh here is one of them
[18:16] Dharma Voyager: I didn’t know if I typed this one or not
[18:16] Dharma Voyager: (typed this quote)
[18:16] Renwick Tomsen: What I liked about lsd was that it created connections between very disparate subjects in my head.
[18:17] Dharma Voyager: how so?
[18:17] Arawn Spitteler doesn’t need Acid for that
[18:17] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:17] Renwick Tomsen: Trying to remember what the transparent wall of skulls led me to.
[18:17] Renwick Tomsen: been a while
[18:17] Dharma Voyager: hahahhaha
[18:18] Renwick Tomsen: It simply gave me another view.
[18:18] Renwick Tomsen: Nothing earth shattering.
[18:18] Dharma Voyager: nods
[18:18] Dharma Voyager: I’m thinking it is a good public service announcement to say… just say no
[18:18] Renwick Tomsen: no revelations
[18:18] Dharma Voyager: but I think the experience is probably as good as going to a good action adventure movie, or seeing a different continent
[18:19] Dogen Coldstream: I think when I started taking drugs in my teenage years, I was looking for a religious experience. I had read all the classic psychedelic literature… but mostly I think I kept doing it because it was fun
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: exactly… I think being honest about the topic is probably good thing
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: I’m sure for some taking a dump is a religious experience
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: i know I have had them
[18:19] Dharma Voyager: heheheheh
[18:20] Dharma Voyager: moderation and all that jazz

[18:20] Dogen Coldstream: that’s a good point thoug
h: religious experience is maybe more about your outlook
[18:20] Dharma Voyager: maybe I’m getting old … or getting deluded or getting who knows what
[18:21] Dharma Voyager: but it is hard not to have a chemical based experience being in this body of mine
[18:21] Dharma Voyager: so saying one chemical… or one way to effect chemicals or states of mind or what ever seems a preference to me
[18:21] stevenaia Michinaga: but aren’t all experiences chemical based
[18:21] Dharma Voyager: of course I assume for myself what is positive
[18:22] Dharma Voyager: exactly what I was trying to say stevie
[18:22] Dharma Voyager: hard not to have one
[18:22] Dharma Voyager: reality tells me… that all of my experiences are
[18:22] Arawn Spitteler: You wish to transcend Neurology?
[18:22] Dharma Voyager: drugs being what drugs are of course.. lend themselves to being abused for escape
[18:23] Dogen Coldstream: not sure how you could do that
[18:23] Dharma Voyager: and that of course is a no no in buddhism
[18:23] Dharma Voyager: I suppose it all comes back to your motivations
[18:23] Arawn Spitteler: The seeming benefits of drugs are sadly temporary; the costs are less often, temporary.
[18:23] Dharma Voyager: nods
[18:23] Dharma Voyager: a very good point
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: would you say the effects of meditation is temporary?
[18:24] Dogen Coldstream: escape… I suspect that a lot of drug use is self-medication. Something is wrong, and this will make me feel better.
[18:24] Arawn Spitteler: Drugs help numb, they don’t really help sense, or druggies wouldn’t take them
[18:24] Dharma Voyager: you are talking out side of my realm of experience
[18:25] Dharma Voyager: I’m not sure I ever took any form of drug to numb except the legal kind
[18:25] Dharma Voyager: smiles wide
[18:25] Arawn Spitteler: Legal or illegal is a matter of Monopoly Awards
[18:25] Dharma Voyager: nods
[18:25] Dogen Coldstream: alcohol definitely numbs… I suppose they all can help numb bad emotional states
[18:26] Dharma Voyager: yes… another good point… chemicals are chemicals… probably why you are taking them that matters more
[18:26] Dogen Coldstream: uncomfortable emotional states, that is
[18:26] Dharma Voyager: I thought this was some really good points, we have not really come across drug use as directly in the other books we have read
[18:27] Arawn Spitteler: Bhagavad Gita deprecates the use of Soma
[18:27] Arawn Spitteler: Whatever Soma is, the rule easily generalizes
[18:27] Dharma Voyager: probably has good reason to
[18:28] Dogen Coldstream: yeah. If what you are looking for is reality, drugs probably aren’t going to help
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: I have yet to read it but I plan to
[18:28] Dogen Coldstream: I do like my caffeine in the morning though
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:28] Dharma Voyager: good points
[18:29] Dharma Voyager: I like the idea of showing a pattern between delusion with some beliefs (comforting beliefs) and drug use
[18:29] Dharma Voyager: that brings it home a lot better for me some how
[18:29] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:30] Arawn Spitteler: Comforting Beliefs are sometimes abused the same as Pharmaceuticals
[18:30] Dogen Coldstream: yep
[18:30] Dharma Voyager: yes … I think that is a wonderful point
[18:30] Dharma Voyager: what was the opiate of the masses?
[18:31] Dogen Coldstream: opium
[18:31] Renwick Tomsen: currently Michael Jackson
[18:31] Arawn Spitteler: Socialism is the opiate of the masses, and Karlo Marx is its prophet
[18:31] Dogen Coldstream: yes
[18:31] Dharma Voyager: actually that is like really weird for me
[18:31] Dharma Voyager: the whole MJ thing
[18:31] Dogen Coldstream: I forget which marx brother he was…
[18:31] Dharma Voyager: pinko
[18:31] Dogen Coldstream: Grin
[18:31] Dharma Voyager: hehehe
[18:32] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:32] Dharma Voyager: before we really go off

Eating a Tangerine is Real Enlightenment

Why is that? This is a very important question: Why is your lame-ass, ordinary work-a-day life the one you keep coming back to? Why is it you always, always, always, end up right back here no matter how far out or how high up you get? The fact is, the universe has chosen you as the vehicle thought which to experience the uncanny thrill of cutting up cabbage for dinner, the wonder that is inhaling oxygen and exhaling carbon dioxide, the fabulous spectacle of watching your clothes dry at a coin-op Laundromat where the radio is stuck on an EZ-listening station and an old lady keeps staring at you for no discernible reason. The universe has demanded that you be you. Ain’t no avoidin’ it.

[18:32] Dharma Voyager: Eating a Tangerine is Real Enlightenment
Why is that? This is a very important question: Why is your lame-ass, ordinary work-a-day life the one you keep coming back to? Why is it you always, always, always, end up right back here no matter how far out or how high up you get? The fact is, the universe has chosen you as the vehicle thought which to experience the uncanny thrill of cutting up cabbage for dinner, the wonder that is inhaling oxygen and exhaling carbon dioxide, the fabulous spectacle of watching your clothes dry at a coin-op Laundromat where the radio is stuck on an EZ-listening station and an old lady keeps staring at you for no discernible reason. The universe has demanded that you be you. Ain’t no avoidin’ it.
[18:32] Dharma Voyager: (typist apologizes for errors)
[18:33] Dharma Voyager: is this where I need to accept life is better if it is boring?
[18:33] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:34] Arawn Spitteler: Boring? That might be the mistake, to be bored in your everyday existence is dull indeed
[18:34] Dogen Coldstream: I feel like that. with every passing year I am more comfortable with everyday life, and less interested in chasing thrills and excitement
[18:34] Dharma Voyager: next point?


But as the day wore on, I began to notice a few things that I’d been too stupid to suss out for the past few weeks. For one thing, if your experience of enlightenment is real, no one can ever take it from you or deny it. Enlightenment means manifesting truly what you really are at every moment. No amount of criticism from anyone can ever take that away anymore than someone’s critical words could somehow magically make your nose disappear. No one can take you away from you.

[18:35] Dharma Voyager: But as the day wore on, I began to notice a few things that I’d been too stupid to suss out for the past few weeks. For one thing, if your experience of enlightenment is real, no one can ever take it from you or deny it. Enlightenment means manifesting truly what you really are at every moment. No amount of criticism from anyone can ever take that away anymore than someone’s critical words could somehow magically make your nose disappear. No one can take you away from you.
[18:36] Dharma Voyager: I’m not sure I got all of this paragraph… but I liked it
[18:36] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:36] Arawn Spitteler: If you are not yourself, what are you?
[18:36] Dogen Coldstream: he is talking about not needing validation from somebody else
[18:36] Dharma Voyager: who are you?
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: "you can’t sleep at home tonight if you can get up and walk away"
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: you can?
[18:37] Dharma Voyager: hahahahh
[18:37] Dhar
ma Voyager: next point?
[18:38] Dogen Coldstream: sure
[18:38] Dharma Voyager: well before we go on
[18:38] Dharma Voyager: arawns question..
[18:38] Dharma Voyager: does this paragraph conflict with the idea of impermanence?
[18:38] Dharma Voyager: that there is no "you"
[18:38] Dogen Coldstream: this is the relative you, not the absolute you
[18:38] Arawn Spitteler: Impermanence? That we are ever?
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: that we are never
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: or only once
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: for a now
[18:39] Arawn Spitteler: The True Self or the False Selves?

[18:39] Dharma Voyager: please explain
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: explain
[18:39] Dharma Voyager: the difference
[18:41] Arawn Spitteler: Each of us is Eternal; which of us was eternal first, is often contested, but we walk on the stage, and play characters. We do not know how, to be ourselves, on the stage, and our eternal nature is lost behind the theater program, we we are eternally ourselves. The True Self isn’t really immortal, but all time is created around it, as a toy.
[18:42] Dharma Voyager: thank you
[18:42] Dharma Voyager: can you explain (dogen) the absolute and the relative selves
[18:42] Dharma Voyager: please
[18:43] Dogen Coldstream: My understanding of Buddhist philosophy, is that from the viewpoint of the absolute, what we erroneously consider "me", is just parts of the whole that we identify with, which is based on illusion. So from that viewpoint, there is no you, or me. It is all of a piece.
[18:44] Dogen Coldstream: From the viewpoint of the relative, though, we are all separate things
[18:44] Arawn Spitteler: The logic behind that philosophy, requires a stretch beyond any verification of logic
[18:44] Dharma Voyager: I’m not sure about that
[18:45] Dharma Voyager: in relation to skandas
[18:45] Arawn Spitteler: It might be a comforting belief, for some, but still questionable
[18:45] Dharma Voyager: it could be
[18:45] Dogen Coldstream: yeah. I’m not sure you can get there from logic. Maybe. It normally comes with years of meditation, insight into the nature of self, and direct experience of oneness. At least that is what I hear
[18:46] Dharma Voyager: sorry I get all confused with the absolute and the relative
[18:47] Dharma Voyager: I’m not quite one with everything
[18:47] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:47] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:47] Dogen Coldstream: sure


It’s a frightening thing to be truly honest with yourself. It means you have no one left to turn to anymore, no one to blame, and to one to look to for salvation. You have to give up any possibility that there will ever be any refuge for you. You have to accept the reality that you are truly and finally on your own. The best thing you can hope for in life is to meet a teacher who will smash all of your dreams, dash all of your hopes, tear your teddy-bear beliefs out of your arms and fling them over a cliff.

[18:47] Dharma Voyager: It’s a frightening thing to be truly honest with yourself. It means you have no one left to turn to anymore, no one to blame, and to one to look to for salvation. You have to give up any possibility that there will ever be any refuge for you. You have to accept the reality that you are truly and finally on your own. The best thing you can hope for in life is to meet a teacher who will smash all of your dreams, dash all of your hopes, tear your teddy-bear beliefs out of your arms and fling them over a cliff.
[18:47] Arawn Spitteler is not one with Everything, but tries to think outside the Box, or Golden Egg
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: there is not try only do
[18:48] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: smash all illusion
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: next point?


So the question becomes this: How do we know what is true and what is fantasy And the answer: Take a look at where you are, at who you are, right here and right now. That’s it. That’s the truth.

[18:49] Dharma Voyager: So the question becomes this: How do we know what is true and what is fantasy And the answer: Take a look at where you are, at who you are, right here and right now. That’s it. That’s the truth.
[18:49] Dharma Voyager: (has to type all quotes that says… ":this is the truth"
[18:49] Arawn Spitteler: Whatever is beyond question, help another to question.
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: well… if they want to question no?
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: I try to wait to have permission to do that
[18:50] Dharma Voyager: hehehe
[18:51] Arawn Spitteler: Having no Door, nor lock, nor hinge, yet golden treasure lies within. If the whole of Creation is seen as a Golden Egg, who do you create an outside perspective, to think outside that box?
[18:51] Arawn Spitteler: If you wait for permission, you are not the aforementioned teacher
[18:51] Dogen Coldstream: I’m not a teacher, I don’t think
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: I am only a student
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: not as humble as I would like
[18:51] Dharma Voyager: hehehe
[18:52] Dogen Coldstream: although you could say everybody plays both roles
[18:52] Arawn Spitteler: To learn, is to share in the getting of wisdom
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: that is the ideal… I think every has something to contribute.. it seems that even those who are the worst example can be the best
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: everyone
[18:52] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[18:53] Renwick Tomsen: sure


Hardcore Zen

Zen is a philosophy of action. That means it isn’t just philosophy you read about and think about. It’s a philosophy you do. You can’t possibly truly understand Zen Buddhism without practicing zazen.
It’s not enough to read about it. It’s not even enough to understand it. You have to live it.

[18:53] Dharma Voyager: Hardcore Zen
Zen is a philosophy of action. That means it isn’t just philosophy you read about and think about. It’s a philosophy you do. You can’t possibly truly understand Zen Buddhism without practicing zazen.
It’s not enough to read about it. It’s not even enough to understand it. You have to live it.
[18:54] Arawn Spitteler: Chan Buddhism, synthesized as the Modest Upanishad, at a monastery with a small forest
[18:54] Arawn Spitteler: Shao-Lyn was a misread, on the part of the Chinese.
[18:54] Dogen Coldstream: that’s part of the story of zen right? If I tell you, all you know is a bunch of words. If I show you where to look, and you see for yourself, then you really know.
[18:55] Dharma Voyager: listens
[18:55] Arawn Spitteler: Learn by doing, I think. Talking might do something, if you learn better, than what you say.
[18:55] Dharma Voyager: please explain "modest upanishad"
[18:56] Arawn Spitteler: Upanishad means Forest Writing, so Shao-Lyn Scriptures might have meant Modest-Forest Writing, or Modest Forest-Writings
[18:56] Arawn Spitteler: There happened to be a small forest, behind the monastery, where the Chinese never heard of Upanish
ad
[18:57] Arawn Spitteler: Forest Writings are what you take into the forest, for meditation on.
[18:57] Arawn Spitteler: Up-In-The-Shades
[18:57] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[18:58] Arawn Spitteler: Lately, I’ve been working on the meaning of Church, and think that Ant-hills and Oaks should be differentiated.
[18:58] Dogen Coldstream: are you talking about the legend that Bodhidharma came from India, settled at shqolin, and taught the monks buddhism and martial arts?
[18:58] Arawn Spitteler: Half a century earlier
[18:58] Dogen Coldstream: ok
[18:58] Dharma Voyager: thank you
[18:59] Arawn Spitteler: Buddha Do-Ma found them in terrible physical condition
[18:59] Arawn Spitteler: Common problem with students of Mysticism, all Meditation – No Haul Water
[18:59] Dharma Voyager: explain please
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: no sweat?
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: sweat equity?
[19:00] Arawn Spitteler: Until you achieve Enlightenment, learn to enjoy the hauling of wood, and the chopping of water; when Enlightenment is gained, continue to enjoy.
[19:00] Dharma Voyager: nods
[19:00] Dogen Coldstream: right
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: in the end it is all about the sweat
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: no?
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: the journey
[19:01] Arawn Spitteler: Death is a popular form of Transcendence, but Transcendence is not Death.
[19:01] Dogen Coldstream: what the author was talking about… chopping cabbage, and watching your clothes spin in the drier
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: nods
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: the mundane
[19:01] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[19:01] Dogen Coldstream: sure
[19:02] Dharma Voyager: (nice having you here arawn)


The fact is, the great Eastern masters of times gone-by are no different from you. Their minds were just as hyperactive as yours and their physiological dynamics every bit as complex. The heights of enlightenment they reached are absolutely accessible to you. This stuff is tough work for anybody, regardless of where they were born or when. Cut out just a bit of those empty distractions and see how much time you create.

[19:02] Dharma Voyager: The fact is, the great Eastern masters of times gone-by are no different from you. Their minds were just as hyperactive as yours and their physiological dynamics every bit as complex. The heights of enlightenment they reached are absolutely accessible to you. This stuff is tough work for anybody, regardless of where they were born or when. Cut out just a bit of those empty distractions and see how much time you create.
[19:03] Dharma Voyager: I often think the same of the argument of the founders of the USA
[19:03] Dharma Voyager: often people say.. oh they didn’t have to deal with what we deal with
[19:03] Dharma Voyager: I think it is some of the same cop out
[19:03] Arawn Spitteler: Flush Toilets are quite a bit to deal with
[19:04] Dharma Voyager: hahahah
[19:04] Dharma Voyager: next point?

Zen replaces all objects of belief with one single thing: reality itself. We believe only in this universe. We don’t believe in the sovereignty of nations. We don’t believe in money or power or fame. We don’t believe in our idols. We don’t believe in our positions or our possessions. We don’t believe we can’t be insulted, or that out honor or the honor of our family, our nations or our faith can be offended. We don’t believe in Buddha.

We just believe in reality. Just this.

[19:04] Dharma Voyager: Zen replaces all objects of belief with one single thing: reality itself. We believe only in this universe. We don’t believe in the sovereignty of nations. We don’t believe in money or power or fame. We don’t believe in our idols. We don’t believe in our positions or our possessions. We don’t believe we can’t be insulted, or that out honor or the honor of our family, our nations or our faith can be offended. We don’t believe in Buddha.
We just believe in reality. Just this.
[19:05] Dharma Voyager: Yoko and me
[19:05] Dogen Coldstream: yeah
[19:05] Dharma Voyager: I don’t believe in Michael Jackson
[19:05] Arawn Spitteler lights a joss stick to the great mythical Reality: I think it’s probably a good idea, to balance Reality with a bit of Fancy
[19:05] Dogen Coldstream: I don’t believe in Robert McNamara
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: Weird ass world we live in
[19:06] Arawn Spitteler: Robert McNamara, who marketed the Edsel, and got us into Viet Nam?
[19:06] Dogen Coldstream: that guy
[19:06] Dharma Voyager: I wonder if they will sell his memorial on DVD
[19:06] Renwick Tomsen: many will
[19:06] Dogen Coldstream: If you haven’t seen it, The Fog of War is an excellent documentary
[19:07] Renwick Tomsen: agreed
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: agrees with Dogen
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: wish more would watch it
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[19:07] Renwick Tomsen: sure


Zen is the complete absence of belief. Zen is the complete lack of authority. Zen tears away every false refuge in which you might hide from the truth and forces you to sit naked before what is real. That’s real refuge.

Reality will announce itself to you in utterly unmistakable ways once you learn to listen. Learning to listen to reality, though, ain’t so easy. You’re so used to shouting reality down, frowning it out completely with your own opinions and views, that you might not even be able to recognize reality’s voice anymore. It’s a funny thing, though, because reality is the single most glaring obvious thing there is. As the woman said in those Palmolive commercials, “You’re soaking in it!” Yet we’ve forgotten how to recognize it.

All your life you learned to deal with reality by excluding certain things, dividing things up into categories, differentiating between this and that. But reality includes all those things we call “wrong.” all those things we call “evil,” all those things we hate because we know in our hearts they are bad things. We can only know what’s “bad” when we discover it within ourselves and label it as such. But what happens is that we establish psychological blinders that prevent us from even seeing that what we consider bad is part of our own psychological makeup. To face reality as it is means we must face even the bad things about ourselves, the things we desperately want to believe are not there because we so desperately want to cling to the idea that we are “good.”

And knowing what’s really within us, we must still practice being good. Practicing Buddhism means being aware of what’s here and now. And that ain’t easy.

[19:07] Dharma Voyager: Zen is the complete absence of belief. Zen is the complete lack of authority. Zen tears away every false refuge in which you might hide from the truth and forces you to sit naked before what is real. That’s real refuge.
Reality will announce itself to you in utterly unmistakable ways once you learn to listen. Learning to listen to reality, though, ain’t so easy. You’re so used to shouting reality down, frowning it out completely with your own opinions and views, that you might not even be able to recognize reality’s voice anymore. It’s a funny thing, though, because reality is the single most glaring obvious thing there is. As the woman said in those Palmolive commercials, “You’re soaking in it!” Yet we’ve forgotten how to recognize it.
[19:07] Dharma Voyager: All your life you learned to deal with reality by excluding certain things, div
iding things up into categories, differentiating between this and that. But reality includes all those things we call “wrong.” all those things we call “evil,” all those things we hate because we know in our hearts they are bad things. We can only know what’s “bad” when we discover it within ourselves and label it as such. But what happens is that we establish psychological blinders that prevent us from even seeing that what we consider bad is part of our own psychological makeup. To face reality as it is means we must face even the bad things about ourselves, the things we desperately want to believe are not there because we so desperately want to cling to the idea that we are “good.”
And knowing what’s really within us, we must still practice being good. Practicing Buddhism means being aware of what’s here and now. And that ain’t easy.
[19:08] stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, sorry, much to do…. thx
[19:08] stevenaia Michinaga: so if I appear to be away… I very may well be
[19:08] stevenaia Michinaga:
[19:08] Dogen Coldstream: See ya Stevey
[19:08] Dharma Voyager: thanks for coming stevie big hugs…
[19:09] Arawn Spitteler: Was that just two paragraphs?
[19:09] Dharma Voyager: four
[19:10] Dogen Coldstream: My shit smells like roses. I know it does.
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: shit I think I had to type these paragraphs after watching the X-files movie
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: "I want to believe"
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: so true so true
[19:10] Dharma Voyager: I remember growing up waiting for the belief to hit me
[19:11] Dharma Voyager: I wanted to believe
[19:11] Dogen Coldstream: ya
[19:11] Renwick Tomsen: I wasted too much time believing
[19:11] Dharma Voyager: at times it was like.. even lightning … have at me
[19:11] Dharma Voyager: how many minutes of belief did you have?
[19:11] Renwick Tomsen: the cumulation is big
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: please explain
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: oh ok
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: I read that wrong
[19:12] Renwick Tomsen: growing up ignoring science and thinking that mind is more powerful than it actually is
[19:12] Dharma Voyager: I had moments… but I can’t say they lasted long
[19:12] Dogen Coldstream: mind is pretty powerful… just not in that domain
[19:13] Dharma Voyager: I was probably lucky enough to have people around me just like me
[19:13] Renwick Tomsen: exactly
[19:13] Arawn Spitteler: Challenging Science is a good thing, but the Scientist is willing to discover
[19:13] Dharma Voyager: next point?
[19:13] Renwick Tomsen: sure


Epilogue

You can transform your life, and it is imperative that you do it. Because only you can do it. No guru can make your life right. No Zen master can show you the way. Only you have the power to make this place you’re living in right now a realm so beautiful even God himself couldn’t dream of anything better. And doing this will transform the universe.

It is up to you.

It’s not just your right; it is your duty.

Only you can find the path and only you can walk it.

[19:13] Dharma Voyager: Epilogue
You can transform your life, and it is imperative that you do it. Because only you can do it. No guru can make your life right. No Zen master can show you the way. Only you have the power to make this place you’re living in right now a realm so beautiful even God himself couldn’t dream of anything better. And doing this will transform the universe.
It is up to you.
It’s not just your right; it is your duty.
Only you can find the path and only you can walk it.
[19:13] Arawn Spitteler: Why were the above four so clumped?
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: they just followed together in the book
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: was the way I typed them…
[19:14] Arawn Spitteler: Typing them so, prevents examination
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: sorry…
[19:14] Dharma Voyager: you don’t scroll?
[19:15] Arawn Spitteler: I didn’t know if it was time pressure, or spiritual dodginess
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: probably neither
[19:15] Arawn Spitteler: They could have been examined individually
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: personal expression
[19:15] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: more of looking at the whole as a set
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: instead of separating
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: no malice involved
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: I think there is only one quote left
[19:16] Dharma Voyager: are we ready?
[19:16] Dogen Coldstream: ok


Your life is yours alone, and to miss your life is the most tragic thing that could happen.

So sit down, shut up, and take a look at it.

[19:16] Dharma Voyager: Your life is yours alone, and to miss your life is the most tragic thing that could happen.
So sit down, shut up, and take a look at it.
[19:17] Dogen Coldstream: "sit down and shut up" is the title of his second book.
[19:17] Dharma Voyager: I like it…
[19:17] Dharma Voyager: over all I didn’t think this book so bad
[19:17] Dharma Voyager: the beginning was a little slow
[19:17] Dogen Coldstream: more autobiographical than most we have read
[19:18] Dharma Voyager: probably newbie issue
[19:18] Dharma Voyager: although the one on the Dali lama was all about him
[19:18] Dogen Coldstream: yeah
[19:18] Dharma Voyager: actually they all had personal stories
[19:18] Dharma Voyager: well thanks everyone for coming.. .this really has been great for me
[19:19] Renwick Tomsen: same here
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: are we thinking of starting again in October?
[19:19] Renwick Tomsen: yes
[19:19] Dogen Coldstream: Steve said something about a Taoist book, I think
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: that would be wonderful…
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: I might read some more on mondays if I find interesting stuff
[19:19] Dharma Voyager: if people are interested in it
[19:19] Renwick Tomsen: cool
[19:20] Dharma Voyager: I also considered recording a book… there is a place that has people record books
[19:20] Dharma Voyager: thought we could do it at the same time or something
[19:20] Renwick Tomsen: librivox?
[19:20] Dharma Voyager: not necessarily buddhist
[19:20] Dharma Voyager: yeah
[19:20] Dharma Voyager: the place you sent us
[19:20] Renwick Tomsen: ah ok. heh
[19:20] Dogen Coldstream: PD audiobooks? that is pretty cool
[19:20] Dharma Voyager: if someone has a recommendation for a book
[19:20] Renwick Tomsen: yeah
[19:20] Dharma Voyager: to do that with and want to listen to it
[19:20] Dharma Voyager: we have a deal
[19:21] Dogen Coldstream: "manual of zen buddhism" by D. T. Suzuki is PD
[19:21] Dharma Voyager: is that recorded already?
[19:21] Dogen Coldstream: I dunno
[19:21] Dharma Voyager: well if anyone wants to take a look please send me recommendations
[19:21] Dharma Voyager: we can continue just on Mondays with readings
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: with breaks in between
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: does everyone have my e-mail address?
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: or one of them?
[19:22] Renwick Tomsen: I think so
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: kk
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: o
r you can just IM me here
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: I will get it
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: let me know if you are interested
[19:22] Renwick Tomsen: will do
[19:22] Dharma Voyager: and I will take a look at my sound equipment a head of time
[19:23] Dharma Voyager: until then… please think about how you would like this all to work come October
[19:23] Dharma Voyager: I’m interested in your feedback Renny because you were crucial in starting this group
[19:23] Renwick Tomsen: ok
[19:23] Dharma Voyager: smiles
[19:23] Dharma Voyager: we don’t have to restart the group too
[19:23] Dharma Voyager: that is an option

[19:24] Dogen Coldstream: I’d personally hate for it to disappear. It has been fun
[19:24] Renwick Tomsen: agreed
[19:24] Dharma Voyager: I am hoping the group will open up a bit more after a break
[19:24] Dharma Voyager: maybe we will start invites
[19:24] Renwick Tomsen: Some informal evenings would be good.
[19:24] Renwick Tomsen: open discussion between books
[19:24] Arawn Spitteler: Ever post events?
[19:25] Dharma Voyager: please explain… I thought they were all informal… laughs
[19:25] Renwick Tomsen: they are structured
[19:25] Dharma Voyager: we had considered it and then thought that it was not the right time
[19:25] Dharma Voyager: it may be a good change
[19:25] Dogen Coldstream: informal… with no assigned topic, just come and chat. nice
[19:25] Renwick Tomsen: yeah
[19:25] Dharma Voyager: ohhhhh… I see
[19:26] Dharma Voyager: well think about how you think that would best work
[19:26] Dharma Voyager: maybe like once a month?
[19:26] Renwick Tomsen: yeah
[19:26] Dharma Voyager: opps
[19:27] Dharma Voyager: I would like to get us back to a more consistent schedule again… when it comes to notes… it really helped me to get reminders out
[19:27] Dharma Voyager: when we moved away from that format I didn’t get reminders out
[19:27] Dharma Voyager: so we had less new people
[19:27] Dogen Coldstream: Yeah, I was bad. getting the discussion notes done at the last minute
[19:27] Dharma Voyager: it made it easy for me to be lazy
[19:28] Dharma Voyager: so we may want to consider… I think having new people come in helps us be more positive and respectful in our interactions… also new ideas are what I like about this group
[19:29] Renwick Tomsen: agile Buddhism
[19:29] Dharma Voyager: nods
[19:29] Dogen Coldstream: yeah
[19:29] Dharma Voyager: yes!
[19:29] Dharma Voyager: oh oh opera man
[19:29] Arawn Spitteler: Opera?
[19:29] Dogen Coldstream: phone solicitation
[19:29] Dogen Coldstream: opera tickets
[19:29] Dharma Voyager: yes … we have the Portland Opera calling to see if we can afford tickets this year
[19:30] Dharma Voyager: we had some really nice tickets last year
[19:30] Dharma Voyager: and they are doing a fund raising drive or something
[19:30] Dharma Voyager: end of fiscal year
[19:30] Dharma Voyager: in any case… please send me feed back and ideas on how we should massage the group
[19:30] Dharma Voyager: in october
[19:31] Dharma Voyager: I must stay that I have learned quite a bit
[19:31] Arawn Spitteler can massage a group in world
[19:31] Renwick Tomsen: hrm. Philip Glass opera
[19:31] Dharma Voyager: who so arawn?
[19:31] Renwick Tomsen: pointing out type
[19:31] Renwick Tomsen: typo
[19:31] Dharma Voyager: hahahah
[19:31] Arawn Spitteler: I had to do a back rub by e-mail, so it can be done
[19:32] Dharma Voyager: hahahah
[19:32] Arawn Spitteler: We should probably schedule an evening, in which I can demonstrate
[19:32] Dharma Voyager: how is your group arawn… I just got a notice or something that someone is leaving… was that affiliated with your groups?
[19:32] Dharma Voyager: did not seem pleasant
[19:33] Arawn Spitteler: Mystic Academy Chatroom? Someone sent a notice, that SL messed up his efforts, and that he was leaving.
[19:33] Dharma Voyager: yes that was it I think
[19:33] Dharma Voyager: what was his effort?
[19:33] Arawn Spitteler: I don’t know what he ran into, or what he thought to teach
[19:34] Dharma Voyager: they have lots of classes there huh?
[19:34] Renwick Tomsen: time for sleep. good night.
[19:34] Renwick Tomsen: *hugs*
[19:34] Dharma Voyager: thanks again Renny… please keep in touch… I’m not far away
[19:34] Renwick Tomsen: I will
[19:34] Dharma Voyager: smiles … big hugs…

Big Hugs…